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Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by ChuckMcM on Friday September 02, 2011 @01:16PM (#2954812)
Heh. TL;DR version - Google starts recovering their costs, hits people in unexpected places.

So back when I worked there Google had no clue what it cost to run their infrastructure at a fine grain level. Sure they knew the aggregate cost, that was easy, but knowing on an application level didn't exist. This was a problem since as more and more things were using the machines, how did you "bill" a department for their machine usage? That really crystallized when the bottom fell out in 2008 and suddenly there was going to be no more new machines/data centers for a while and everyone had to 'make do.'

They mobilized an effort to figure this out, its not like it isn't knowable, and ever the data driven company the first signs of light were appearing just as I was leaving. It should not be a surprise but they discovered many things they did not previously believe was true, and I don't doubt it has driven a lot of change going forward. One of the more interesting outcomes was that projects/products were actually getting cancelled if they cost more to run than they could generate in revenue (I'm looking at you Goog-411)

So this knowledge is being applied to GAE, which is great, its also another way to back compute some of their operational efficiencies.

But that it costs money to run stuff? Well that isn't really news is it? That it costs that much? Well there is the whole if it doesn't make money it will get cancelled threat.

And the kicker is pricing out the scarce resource. It looks (and I've been gone over a year and half so I am speculating based on this move on their part) like their 'scarce' resource is web server front ends. (the labeled "Frontend instance") Traditionally they've been like most multi-tier web properties split between front end machines which host the web facing stuff, and back end machines that do the heaving lifting and storing. And by this change one can reason that residency on the 'front end' is more valuable than crunching in the 'back end.'

I'm guessing PlusFeed gets a lot of web traffic. So they spend a lot of time 'actively' on the front side, and from their numbers they do practically nothing on the back side. This fits well with the sudden massive price increase.

This gives you an insight into Google's business dynamics as well. Where page-views are the limiting resource, and computation is not. When you look at it that way, you can see that most of their 'revenue' has to be delivered through their front end services, and so consuming that resource reduces (potentially) their income. Hence the charge inconsistency.

Now contrast that to Billy-Bob's Web Farm (fictitious service) where every machine in their data center can be a web server, and front end serving is trivial, its all about the bandwidth. Their pricing would probably be more gigabytes transferred.

I would not be surprised at all if it is impractical to run such 'translation' services (basically all web traffic very little compute) on a hosted environment like Google's.

Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by buff-a on Friday September 02, 2011 @05:27PM (#2955672)
So they built a service called "App Engine" and it turns out that the "engines" that run my "app" are exactly the parts that Google doesn't have enough of, and so they are going to charge me uncompetitive amounts of money per day?

Lets suppose that google doesn't have enough machines. Do they:

  a) Massively increase the price to reduce customers?
  b) Massively increase the number of machines?
You're saying "a".
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by ChuckMcM on Friday September 02, 2011 @07:53PM (#2956041)
Actually no. I'm saying that they seem to have learned what their costs are and have priced their service based on those costs and what ever economic model they use. Given their pricing it suggested that "transactions" (which is to say a query from the web and its response) are either a good scalar for their cost to deliver, or are one of their scarcer resources.

It is entirely possible that they discover they can't make a business out of selling 'engines' like this, it wouldn't be the first time they decided they were leaving too much money on the table.

They chose "c" - scale the price so that AppEngine is revenue positive for the company using these constants for the various moving parts.

Clearly some customers will find that it no longer makes sense for them to use AppEngine. It doesn't say anything about whether the market reach will be sufficient to sustain that business.

Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by catch23 on Saturday September 03, 2011 @05:37AM (#2956968)
I'm not sure if Google understand their own freemium model. Isn't the idea to let people use your cloud service at a very low cost, in hopes that they'll scale up and pay more? I feel like there's a huge gap between free and paying $400 a month. The day that the app becomes popular is the day the developer will have to shut it down or get hit with large server bills.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by chubot on Friday September 02, 2011 @01:36PM (#2954900)
Your last point is very confusing. You're saying you think Google can't spin up more App Engine front ends if it wants? ("every machine in their data center can [not] be a web server") Or any other kind of front end?
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by ChuckMcM on Friday September 02, 2011 @02:43PM (#2955143)
Google historically splits off their "front end" which is dealing with messages from the internet and their "back end" which is processing what those messages want to do. It was briefly described in the original search paper they presented.

Of necessity, most machines that Google runs have 'private' (as in not directly addressable) addresses. This is how it seems that everyone runs things when they get above a certain number of servers.

Thirdly because one can assume that 'attacks' (whether they depend on XSS, overflows, or what not) are coming from the Interwebz its prudent to present the smallest possible attack surface on a machine which is being fed internet stuff. As you can imagine, those security constraints make for uncomfortable restrictions on what you can do in the 'front end', so a machine that is 'front end' has a different set of security constraints than a machine that is 'back end' (they are still constraints there of course but having gone through the filter of the front end machine which has greatly attenuated the possible exploit vectors).

I believe it is this armored 'front end' resource which is the scarce resource, but again, I've been gone over a year and things change quickly inside the 'plex.

Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by chubot on Friday September 02, 2011 @09:29PM (#2956206)
Not trying to piss all over this, since I thought you might have been saying something I didn't know. But I have worked at Google for a long time and basically everything you wrote is incorrect and has been since at least 2005 before App Engine even existed (why would a paper written in 1998 be relevant?).

Without going into too much detail, it shouldn't surprise anyone that physical machines are interchangeable via cluster management software, so application front end and back end software all end up running on the same machines. They aren't addressed through DNS but by another mechanism. There is no special system administration for application-specific front ends vs back ends. Spinning up more instances of a particular server is a 1 line change. Reverse proxies (i.e. a non-app-specific front end) are also involved but they're not a bottleneck AFAIK (this problem is well "commoditized" in open source whereas other parts of Google's stack are not).

I would be curious to see a comparison with competitors like Heroku, which I've heard are pretty expensive too. Theoretically Google should be cheaper because Heroku runs on AWS and thus is paying for Amazon's profits (I have no idea how they compare.)

Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by stickfigure on Tuesday September 06, 2011 @01:06PM (#2966270)
The original point is "almost right". The scarce resource reflected in the new pricing model is not machines, but RAM. The old pricing model assumed CPU time was the essential resource. The new pricing model bills you for the amount of time your instance (which has a fixed RAM reservation) stays resident.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by wisty on Friday September 02, 2011 @09:54PM (#2956239)
It sounds plausible that "on demand" instances i.e. search servers are a bottleneck, while bulk offline processing (in the back-end) i.e. PageRank calculations is not such a constraint.

Yes, those offline processing instances could be suspended while dealing with a traffic peak, but peak traffic is still often a challenge, especially now that Google is pushing more and more stuff onto the web servers (Instant).

That might be what he meant.

Disclaimer - I don't work for Google, it's just a guess.

Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by phillmv on Friday September 02, 2011 @02:08PM (#2955011)
I interpreted it more as saying that their architecture allows them to parallelize all sorts of 'back end computations' across their infrastructure, such that their scarcity is in internet-facing processing and not processing as a whole.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by z92 on Friday September 02, 2011 @02:12PM (#2955031)
Probably he is saying that because their expertise and focus lies in backend, it's costlier for Google to increase frontend service and server compared with say, other web-hosting companies.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by Locke1689 on Friday September 02, 2011 @02:24PM (#2955067)
Web servers still count as backend. This is not a lack of talent problem.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by Locke1689 on Friday September 02, 2011 @10:05PM (#2956259)
People who are downvoting me don't really understand what I'm saying. I'm finishing up my internship at Google now. This is a nomenclature problem -- what ChuckMcM is properly referring to is front-facing backend vs "back" facing backend. They're really just two different types of backend servers. SREs manage both and they are installed similarly. It could be argued that Google perhaps has certain weaknesses in frontend (i.e., UI/UX design), but this is clearly a case where engineering talent is not lacking -- they're the same engineers as the ones working on private servers.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by Locke1689 on Friday September 02, 2011 @10:09PM (#2956272)
I think I know what he's talking about. My LDAP is the same as the email in my profile. I'll wager a guess at what the real problem is.
Re:Google App Engine Pricing Angers Developers, Kills PlusFeed by iki23 on Saturday September 03, 2011 @06:15AM (#2957029)
Yep, but one would expect Google being able to do better and get it work for lower cost at their scale and level of expertise, which is raising the doubt among developers.