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Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by the_af on Monday December 13, 2021 @06:54AM (#29538769)
> Most languages have far more obvious grammatical distinctions. The Romance languages have obvious gender in the grammar, but it's... just there. It doesn't do much except to indicate that the subject or object is male or female. Beyond that, there are some rather random associations of gender to specific nouns.

I can't speak for all Romance languages but my native Spanish: it's true that we have gendered nouns (most if not all of them, I think) but it has nothing to do with the speaker, so it's not a language for men or women. For example, a chair ("silla") is always female, regardless of whether it's me saying it (a male) or my mother. It's a bit like how ships in English are a "she" regardless of who's speaking, only more enforced and for all nouns.

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by okal on Monday December 13, 2021 @06:58AM (#29538787)
An interesting Romance counter-example is "Obrigado" vs "Obrigada" ("thank you", in Portuguese). I'm not even remotely fluent, but if I recall correctly, the gender is dependent on the speaker, not the person being addressed.
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by n4r9 on Monday December 13, 2021 @07:40AM (#29539016)
I've heard of this example before, and this is speculative but I wonder if it's because the speaker is counter-intuitively also the object of the phrase.

The root "obrigad" sounds a lot like the English word "obligate". If this is more than just a coincidence, then a more direct translation is "I am obliged" rather than "thank you". Said this way it makes a lot of sense why the verb is determined by the speaker.

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by telmo on Monday December 13, 2021 @07:51AM (#29539085)
Yes, this is exactly the reason. (I am a native speaker)
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by the-smug-one on Monday December 13, 2021 @01:49PM (#29542890)
Can it be extended with a reference to the (self-)object? Like "me llamo" being "I call myself" in Spanish for "my name is".
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by jolmg on Monday December 13, 2021 @09:59PM (#29547683)
The difference between the "obrigado" in Portuguese example and the "me llamo" in Spanish example is that "obrigado" is probably an adjective while "llamo" is a verb. An equivalent Spanish example would be "estoy obligado" ("I am obligated" with male speaker) and "estoy obligada" ("I am obligated" with female speaker).

As an aside, I don't think Spanish has a word that's quite like "obliged". Maybe "endeudado", but that's just "in debt" and is not particularly about favors.

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by nachexnachex on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @09:34AM (#29551920)
We can say "muy agradecido" or agradecida in formal context. It's unusual, but works as an example
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by the_af on Monday December 13, 2021 @02:53PM (#29543710)
In Spanish, "me llamo" carries no gender information.
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by codethief on Monday December 13, 2021 @07:32AM (#29538980)
Well, practically all adjectives in Spanish/Portuguese/French/Italian change depending on the grammatical gender of the noun they refer to. And, of course, if the noun in question is "I" (as in your case), then they reveal the (physical) gender of the speaker because usually

    grammatical gender of a person == physical gender of that person
But compared to the differences in, e.g., Japanese that some people here are discussing, this seems rather minor.
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by ggrrhh_ta on Monday December 13, 2021 @08:28AM (#29539377)
The most obvious English case would be "beautiful/handsome".

I am handsome.

I am beautiful.

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by WillPostForFood on Monday December 13, 2021 @09:30AM (#29539873)
Those words are differentiated on the object, not the gender of the speaker.
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by ggrrhh_ta on Monday December 13, 2021 @09:48AM (#29540027)
I was trying to give an example similar to obrigado/obrigada in English.
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by WillPostForFood on Monday December 13, 2021 @10:59AM (#29540736)
OK, but neither are examples of language being different based on the speaker, they are both based on gender of the object, whether is is contextually yourself, or another.
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by kingcharles on Monday December 13, 2021 @03:39PM (#29544327)
Handsome being a male adjective is a recent development though. Read some 19th century novels and the women are routinely described as handsome.

I told my girlfriend she was handsome the other day and she objected strenuously.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/355908/why-is-ha...

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by the_af on Monday December 13, 2021 @07:04AM (#29538808)
Oh, yes, but those aren't nouns. I didn't mean Spanish isn't gendered -- it obviously is -- but that gendered nouns aren't indicative of the gender of the speaker, so that particular observation was unrelated to the topic under discussion. Your example is indeed an example of gendered language depending on the speaker, and has similar examples in Spanish (e.g. "contento" / "contenta" for "happy").
Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by jolmg on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @04:03PM (#29571598)
Seeing that "obrigato" is used to say thanks kind of makes me wonder if Japanese's "arigato" has a similar etymology.

Apparently not:

http://www.accessj.com/2014/05/etymology-of-arigato.html

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by forinti on Monday December 13, 2021 @09:41AM (#29539967)
There are other little things in Portuguese:

I did it myself: Eu fiz eu mesmo/Eu fiz eu mesma.

And most adjectives. Actually, "obrigado" is "obliged" so the phrase "much obliged" is equivalent to the Portuguese "muito obrigado".

Re:Cultures where men and women don’t speak the same languag... by pvaldes on Monday December 13, 2021 @06:41PM (#29546228)
"Obrigado" is a contraction for "I am" obrigado. ("I'm indebted to you"), so you need to use the gender appropriate for the speaker