News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by eatonphil on Friday December 10, 2021 @09:50AM (#29510491)
The time zone issues sound fun:

> A visit to Mount Athos also involves literal time travel. The monasteries there still go by Byzantine time, in which the day begins at sunset, not midnight, so the time zone changes literally every day. Visitors may have to set their watches back by as much as seven hours as they cross the border. And don't forget to change the date as well. Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind. It's almost two weeks ago there!

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by runjake on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:05AM (#29511469)
Trivia: We used Julian calendar dating on one of our maintenance systems in the US military. Everyone had to learn this dating, and yes it was quite difficult. I asked and never got a good answer on why it was done this way ("Because it's always been this way.")

It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but someone else may have a better memory and pipe up.

More info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by rwmj on Friday December 10, 2021 @09:57AM (#29510592)
And no entry in the timezone database :-( https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos But then if they have no computers, maybe that doesn't matter.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by srcreigh on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:10AM (#29511527)
There's at least one computer on Mt Athos.

I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the snake swims across the lake for a good close up.

You can get lots of great photos that way.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by ChainOfFools on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:10PM (#29514108)
I know for certain that, from 1997 onward, there was at least one Amiga 2000 on Athos (specifically, in Vatopedi) because it used to be mine.

How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was ever even plugged in, I never found out.

I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for it, though he did know his way around the machine just well enough to run tetris and wordperfect.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by colejohnson66 on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:00AM (#29510625)
The constant "time zone" changes might throw a wrench into calculating the offsets. How far in advance can we calculate sunrise/sunset times?
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by Arubis on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:04AM (#29510679)
Depends on what you mean by sunrise/sunset. “The relative position of the sun’s edge drops below/rises above the tangent of the average surface at sea level” is pretty easy to calculate many years out; the complications are deviations in Earth’s orbit. “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather, good luck.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by registeredcorn on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:31AM (#29511024)
> “I can/can’t see the sun anymore” depends on local weather

For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is, here's some additional details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction

Technically, one might also argue something weird like, "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case a different phenomina would come into play:

https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light

What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even after the sun has technically set, there's still a bit of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due additional factors.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by mschuster91 on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:02AM (#29510653)
Infinite, there is a mathematical formula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by at_a_remove on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:37PM (#29513690)
I am frustrated in the faintness of memory, but I dimly recollect an area which, for about two years, altered time every day so that noon was when the sun was directly over head. Something Royal Time, or something Solar Time.

There are some weird time zones out there.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by elorant on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:36AM (#29511092)
They have computers. Some monasteries are modernized and they use computers to digitize old documents and books, or for daily works.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by kgeist on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:19AM (#29510879)
>Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind

Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar. Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in the 20th century.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by tut-urut-utut on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:44AM (#29511198)
Majority of Orthodox Churches didn't switch to Gregorian calendar, some of them did, although some only partially.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by BucketsMcG on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:06PM (#29514059)
This is more or less true in Ethiopia too. The length of the day doesn't vary much there, but by convention the clock is offset by six hours, which makes for great fun when you arrange to meet somebody and have to establish whether or not you mean "Ethiopian time". Noon to us is six o'clock to them.

They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by Grustaf on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:12AM (#29511543)
A big part of the orthodox church (mostly on the slavic side) also uses the old calendar. That's why Russians "celebrate Christmas in January".
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by unyttigfjelltol on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:02AM (#29510654)
When they tap the chestnut at 3:30am for prayer, is that a bedtime event (their time) or a daybreak event (standard timekeeping)?
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by elorant on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:50AM (#29511276)
The former. 3:30 am is like 8:30 pm. Local hour is about six hours behind regional.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by urtrs on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:39AM (#29511123)
It is a daybreak event.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by necovek on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:21AM (#29510904)
It sounds irrelevant instead, and whoever wrote the article, is obviously being a bit too playful with words.

Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different calendar system altogether — it's fine, you just need to convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using different start points), none of it is particularly notable. Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better aligned with astronomical events.

Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something outrageous either.

Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different conventions which obviously have no practical matter.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by SllX on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:35AM (#29511080)
It’s a travel mag, not an investigative report. Playing with words and making bad jokes is like 90% of what they do and that’s just fine.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by rileyphone on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:43AM (#29511179)
It's also Ken Jennings, so it checks out with his personality.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by necovek on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:59PM (#29513977)
As long as you don't take it seriously like the GP did, I agree that's fine.

Unfortunately, people do take it seriously, so it's also fine to point it out for what it is.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by joelmichael on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:44AM (#29511199)
Being better aligned with astronomical events makes it more correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by zajio1am on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:24AM (#29511722)
I would say that the purpose of the calendar is tracking time/days in general. Astronomical events are just used as a tool to do that. Earlier calendars were lunar-based instead of solar-based, as keeping synchronized with moon is easier.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by dangerbird2 on Friday December 10, 2021 @02:10PM (#29514109)
The solar cycle is extremely important for premodern agricultural societies, since it allows predicting growing and harvesting seasons. If you're going by the Julian calendar and the Autumn equinox is falling on September 10, there's probably going to be confusion as to when the harvest should occur. In the case of the Gregorian Calendar, Catholic countries rely on the Spring Equinox to schedule Easter, and when it started occurring well before March 21, this made it increasingly difficult to synchronize the religious and secular calendars.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by necovek on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:57PM (#29515948)
While it's somewhat true, most of the people in premodern agricultural societies couldn't read (especially those concerned with when the harvest should happen), and probably couldn't care less about dates in the calendar. Even today, weather and actual crop lifecycle plays a larger role in agriculture than particular dates.

Even if people were tracking dates, adjusting for a couple of days every 200 years wouldn't be that hard: nobody would remember the good old times when we did the harvest on September 22nd in 1234, and now we do them on September 20th in 1434.

Finally, matching up with astronomical events would sometimes put sidereal year (and day) at the forefront: a day that's ~4 minutes shorter than the solar day making the tropical year Gregorian calendar is based on. Things get murky quite quickly once you start going down that path of what "correct" really is.

Note that in the Gregorian calendar, Spring equinox in 2021 and 2022 fell or falls on March 20th. It's only pretty good when averaged out over a 400-year cycle.

Basically, all of these calendar systems are attempts to "square the circle": find something resembling the least common multiple of non-integer values (solar day length and tropical year length), and then try to mix in a bunch of events observed in a different coordinate system (to overly simplify it, all the night stuff is "sidereal").

So we get back to what is really "useful"?

If you don't care about knowing how many days ago, or on what date in the proleptic calendar of your choice something happened in the past just from the date inscribed on it (eg. imagine a letter dated January 5th, 1605), you would certainly be fine with just dropping 10-13 days somewhere along the way. I can, however, understand when someone thinks it's easier to be off from astronomical events for a few weeks to avoid all that administrative trouble, for instance. However, the biggest practical problem today would be that everyone else has written those 10-13 days off, so it's probably easiest to switch too, especially in the global world we've got today.

But there is nothing intrinsically better in the Gregorian calendar that makes it win on all counts. It's just another agreed-upon approximation.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by necovek on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:10PM (#29516062)
What about the drift in the Gregorian calendar? Solar day and tropical year do not have a least common multiple.

Earth's rotation is — arguably — better measured against the stars, so a sidereal day is more "correct", yet it would not map to our daily routine at all.

So I believe the question is not what is more "correct" (we've long established that we are dealing with approximations at best, Julian calendar included: it already had leap years), but what is more useful? And that's what has driven adoption of the Gregorian calendar in most of the world, but I am fine if somewhere it's more useful not to have to worry about did some days just disappear at some point in the past.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by Uehreka on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:20PM (#29518385)
I mean the answer is pretty simple: Neither is perfect, but the Gregorian calendar is objectively more correct. It has a small amount of drift, but the drift is less than the Julian calendar. This also makes it more useful, because it will be able to predict solstices and equinoxes (and other dates needed for scheduling planting and harvesting of crops) more accurately than the Julian calendar. Its overwhelming dominance is evidence that not many people care about the ~2 weeks that disappeared a couple hundred years ago.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by necovek on Saturday December 11, 2021 @02:04AM (#29519113)
You missed my point: where continuous dates are useful, it's ok not to care about two weeks of discrepancy even today. Basically, I am saying is that the biggest advantage of the Gregorian calendar today is its prevalance: all the other things matter less.

You also seem to be overstating the importance of exact dates when it comes to agriculture: my experience is that +-13 days does not make a practical difference, especially if it slowly accumulates (it's not like you would suddenly have to do the harvest 13 days later from one year to the next — you actuslly had to do it 10-13 days "early" once the calendar was switched, and it didn't make a difference even then).

If human civilization continued using the Julian calendar, we wouldn't have been any worse off: nothing points at it that we would have been. I am not saying that Gregorian calendar is "worse" at all (though those born on Feb 29 might beg to disagree when they go 8 years between birthdays 2096-2104 :)), just that where it's better does not matter much.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by msla on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:38PM (#29515171)
And here we have the root of the disconnect between wall-clock time and stopwatch time.

In short: How long it takes to cook an egg doesn't change because someone inserted a leap second.

Of course, when people try to do the obvious thing, and measure time durations using a wall clock, that's when the fun begins. In that world, "a day from now" is not a consistent number of seconds in the future, due to the aforementioned leap seconds, daylight savings time, and, potentially, time zone shifts if the person doing the measuring is traveling, or is (or, perhaps, was) in a particularly "interesting" jurisdiction.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by input_sh on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:32AM (#29511036)
It's also why Russia's October Revolution of 1917 happened on November 7th. The state officially switched a year later, and November 7th = October 25th in the Old Style calendar. Wonderfully confusing.
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by tut-urut-utut on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:43AM (#29511180)
While we are at curiosities, I'd like explanation (please without googling) as to why Octoberfest in Munich, Germany always begins in September?
Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by mschuster91 on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:02AM (#29511435)
As someone born and raised in Munich, I'll answer that question without Googling ;)

The Oktoberfest is named for the marriage of Crown Prince Ludwig and Princess Therese in October 1810 and happened in October, until in 1872 it was decided to move the begin a couple weeks earlier, because in Munich the October weather is often very cold and rain-plagued.

Re:Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2... by agurk on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:16AM (#29511624)
Also without googling - but I've only lived in Munich not born there :)

Historically the event had a focus on horse racing (and did have a race until 1960). I've heard one of the reasons to move it back was also that the meadows were better for racing in when dry and more likely to be so in September.