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Re:The Patent Pledge by pg on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @04:41PM (#2947462)
If you want to start a movement, you can't aim too high initially, or you just stall. The patent pledge in its current form is at least fairly easy to swallow. If it sticks, it will have the effect of making patent suits against competitors seem more dubious, which would in turn prepare people for more exacting versions.

How far ultimately would you want to push it? I honestly don't know yet. Patents may have some utility. It's a very complicated question. I've read a lot about the history of technology, and I can't say for sure whether things would have gone better or worse without patents. The topic seems to be one of those where on average the strength of people's opinions is inversely proportional to how much they've studied the problem.

Re:The Patent Pledge by tc on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @05:02PM (#2947541)
Certainly, biting off too much at once isn't workable. But then again, biting off too little can stall a movement too, as it can fail to inspire as much passionate support as a somewhat larger bite. Starting a movement is a hard problem -- a significantly harder one than making money. I appreciate your effort to address the problem, regardless of which way it goes.

Let me address your last sentence, though. Your statement presupposes a utilitarian moral system. That is, it assumes that a person's position is completely determined by which policy will result in the greatest growth in technology.

I've studied the history of patents as well, and I share your practical uncertainly over which policy inspires more growth. Patents may, in fact, grow certain types of technology faster while inhibiting growth in other areas. Since we need to weigh the harm caused by the lack of things that never existed against the benefits brought by things that do, it's probably impossible to do a quantitative analysis that is fair to both sides.

However, I and many others oppose patents on deontological grounds. That is, even if the existence of a patent monopoly produces some technological benefits as compared to a non-monopolistic system, we would choose freedom from monopoly.

John Carmack may have stated the essence of this position better than anyone since Jefferson [1]:

"The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying." -- John Carmack

[1] "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me." -- Thomas Jefferson

Re:The Patent Pledge by jbooth on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @06:07PM (#2947794)
Well, it stinks when you try to do something good and then catch a bunch of crap from people doing nothing, for not doing enough. So I don't want to do that.

But here's the thing - while this is good, the Intellectual Ventures of the world are actually wining and dining congressional aides and maxing donations. The financial industry got that patent carve-out a couple months ago that only applied to their industry. Until tech people get into the game, full-court press in DC and get actual job creators and moneymen in front of congressmen telling them that this stuff destroys jobs, they're not going to be represented.

You're not obligated to go on a personal crusade on this, and it sounds like a big hellish pain in the ass that would be a net loss for you personally and for YC by entangling you in politics. But until someone does, people in favor of patent reform are going to be unilaterally disarmed.

Maybe some sort of industry lobbying group for small tech biz that's not beholden to the big corps would be effective. A small amount kicked in by some of the major angels/VCs, and a limited lobbying mission of "stuff that everyone can agree to" which would certainly include abusive patent use.

Re:The Patent Pledge by earbitscom on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @08:40PM (#2948183)
That is the precise point of this initiative. Since lobbying for reform is timely, not going to make immediate change, and ultimately becomes a war of finances, the goal is to bring consumer awareness to the issue and create an environment where being on the pledge list is a big benefit to companies. It also puts those companies together on a team for this issue, which may lead to other "rules" that help force the change. Since it's not targeting patent trolls with actual products, you may even end up in a situation where large companies on the list decide that the only people they litigate against are those who are inhibiting innovation from others. For example, Bump won't license its patent to any companies not on the list. Basically, stop blocking innovation, or be blocked.
Re:The Patent Pledge by jbooth on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @08:47PM (#2948198)
Yeah, since posting I realized that a list of pledgees is exactly the kind of list you want if you're going to form an industry association based around this issue. So good on pg in general.
Re:The Patent Pledge by cabalamat on Thursday September 01, 2011 @12:19AM (#2948645)
> The topic seems to be one of those where on average the strength of people's opinions is inversely proportional to how much they've studied the problem.

For me, at least, the experience has been the reverse: I used to think the patent system was basically sound with only a few problems, but the more I've read on the history of patents, the more I've realised how broken it is, and has been for a long time.

For example, in the 18th century James Watt used his patent to stymie development of high-pressure steam engines.

In the 19th century, there was costly patent litigation over barbed wire, which benefitted the economy not one jot. Nor did the sewing machine patent thicket and ensuing litigation benefit the consumer.

A patent is supposed to teach people how to make an invention. But in the 20th century, Frank Whittle wrote his patent application for the turbojet several years before he had actually made one. His patent couldn't teach people how to make a turbojet, because at the time of writing he didn't know himself! -- it took Whittle several years of hard engineering before he built a working jet engine.

Re:The Patent Pledge by haberman on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @05:53PM (#2947736)
What is a good example of something that would have turned out worse if there hadn't been software patents? (I know you've argued before that software patents aren't fundamentally different than patents on anything else, but to a lot of people software patents have more obviously negative consequences).
Re:The Patent Pledge by pg on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @08:11PM (#2948129)
The most famous example is probably Watt's steam engine. Bolton & Watt had high development costs and could not have gotten funding without their patent.

But once established they definitely used patents against smaller competitors. So it is hard to say for sure even in this case whether patents were a net win. They probably were though. The patent probably caused modern separate-condenser steam engines to happen at least a few years earlier.

(I recommend the story of Bolton & Watt to present day founders. It is remarkable how little has changed.)

Re:The Patent Pledge by loup-vaillant on Thursday September 01, 2011 @04:40AM (#2949150)
Strange. That directly contradicts Against Intellectual Monopoly[1], which claims patents did more harm than good in this very case.

One reason is independent discovery: most innovations tend to be discovered independently and nearly simultaneously. Like, when "science is ready", innovations just pop out of several people's mind relatively quickly. (See also Eben Moglen's folk theory of the internet and innovation: "wrap the internet around a planet, spin the planet, and ideas flow out of the network".)

If we accept that, the only thing that could have significantly slowed the development of the modern separate-condenser steam engine down is money. Like, no single one investor is willing to risk making the first step, by fear of being eaten by copycats. If this is so, then we have a tragedy of the commons.

Risk aversion in this case is indeed a problem. I think it is mitigated however by (i) the first mover advantage, and (ii) variations of risk-aversion among individuals (combined with independent discovery, you get a winner-takes-all scenario).

Ah, before I forget: adopting an individualist point of view tend to favour patents: an inventor is entitled to reward (forgetting other's entitlement for freedom of invention). If I didn't have that patent, then I wouldn't have done this much good (forgetting that others may have done it otherwise). I know you didn't make this error, —Cf your §2—, but others do —for instance by taking your §1 out of context.)

[1]: http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/against.htm

Re:The Patent Pledge by dantheman on Thursday September 01, 2011 @11:49AM (#2950477)
Here's a slightly different take on Bolton & Watt http://mises.org/daily/3280

I think the key takeaway is that the patent was retroactively extended; so the idea was already created. If the extension was necessary for funding and development, then a case can be made for granting temporary monopolies for anything regardless of the inventor (the idea already exists, so we should find the best implementer) - I think most would be against this idea.

Re:The Patent Pledge by gabrielroth on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @09:27PM (#2948286)
The poster above was asking specifically about software patents.
Re:The Patent Pledge by pg on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @10:15PM (#2948392)
Oops. I don't know of anything that would have turned out for the worse without software patents. But I only know about a subset of uses of software. There might be cases in pharmaceuticals or manufacturing where patents helped protect individual inventors against big companies.
Re:The Patent Pledge by vadiml on Thursday September 01, 2011 @09:02AM (#2949817)
It seems pretty obvious that if instead of patent system we had a mandatory obligation to publish full specs (schematics and source code) for all marketed products the invention rate will grow exponentially. The development costs will be cut down because of possibility to incrementally improve on existing products.
Re:The Patent Pledge by michaeldhopkins on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @06:19PM (#2947844)
Paul, how do we join? I'd like to support this.
Re:The Patent Pledge by fredBuddemeyer on Thursday September 01, 2011 @08:07AM (#2949632)
i cant see a place to take the pledge so i added one on my own site http://littlebiggy.org/2005087. its still in alpha but it oughta work since you need to use your real name.
Re:The Patent Pledge by walter on Wednesday August 31, 2011 @07:42PM (#2948059)
Part of the problem is that the negative impact of patent trolling doesn't yet register with the general public as an issue comparable to the frivolous med mal suits that necessitated tort reform. We need Michael Moore to produce a documentary on the harms caused by patent trolling (and bad patents), so that the full extent of the problem is presented to a wider audience.