News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism by Jensson on Saturday November 27, 2021 @09:59AM (#29360623)
> What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.”

Right, and the parents aren't saying "I refuse to let kids read any books by black authors", they are saying "don't put books into the curriculum just because the authors are black". I know the way I presented them wasn't 100% accurate, but I'd argue that it is way more accurate of their position than their representation of the parents position.

Now, the point isn't which of those sides are right. The point is that one side here argues that the others should get rejected by society since their position shouldn't be tolerated. I believe that side shouldn't do that. I believe the people who argues like that are way more damaging to society than the side they are arguing against.

Re:Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism by notahacker on Saturday November 27, 2021 @10:24AM (#29360838)
When school districts are coming up with lists of books by black authors or with civil rights subjects to ban them and cancelling black author appearances, and parents are explaining that they support such measures because they don't want their kid to feel guilty for being white or that it's all Critical Race Theory, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that the only objections being voiced by parent groups is that selecting black authors is a bit arbitrary. (Funnily enough I don't see such massive pushback when teachers set kids the objective of reading a book with a European author, or a book written over 100 years ago...)
Re:Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism by Jensson on Saturday November 27, 2021 @10:35AM (#29360917)
> When school districts are coming up with lists of books by black authors or with civil rights subjects to ban them and cancelling black author appearances, and parents are explaining that they support such measures because they don't want their kid to feel guilty for being white or that it's all Critical Race Theory

But that is about banning topics, not being upset because your kid came home with a book by a black author. I agree that is bad, but that wasn't what this discussion was about.

> (Funnily enough I don't see such massive pushback when teachers set kids the objective of reading a book with a European author, or a book written over 100 years ago...)

Yeah, some of the pushback will be motivated by racism, but labelling all pushback as racism wont do you any favours.

Re:Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism by notahacker on Saturday November 27, 2021 @12:38PM (#29361846)
When some parents are banning books by black authors, other parents are getting angry about their kids being allowed to or even encouraged to read books by black authors, and no parents are getting angry at teachers for any reading suggestions not related to things culture warriors really hate like the suggestion that black people are normal and racism is a thing, it seems pretty absurd to suggest that the pushback is unlinked to the parents' views on race.

Perhaps a small minority of parents picketing the first black kids to arrive at their kids' school, did so out of sincere belief that race had no more place in determining catchment areas than admissions (and the whole all white status quo from carefully drawn districts was just something they incidentally sought to protect), but anybody arguing that the real intolerance wasn't the people pushing back against black kids arriving at their kids' school but the people who suggested the pushback was mainly driven by racism would obviously be arguing in bad faith...

Re:Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism by ModernMech on Saturday November 27, 2021 @12:54PM (#29361975)
> Right, and the parents aren't saying "I refuse to let kids read any books by black authors", they are saying "don't put books into the curriculum just because the authors are black".

Let me tell you my point of view. I am an educator, and so I have bigger stake in this issue than most here on HN, who I would think are by a large majority in the tech field. I don't know what your profession is, but could you imagine if you found out what you say is happening between teachers and parents were happening in your field? You would want to know exactly where that was happening, right? Because as a person in this field, you would have some power and authority in that community to affect real change. To stamp out that behavior. Right? That's where I am at now. If what you're saying is true, I'm really upset by that, because it reflects directly on my profession and myself, and I'd like to use my position to stop it from happening.

So when you tell me that a conversation is happening like you described, I want to know specifics. What organizations, what teachers? I'm trying to understand if this is a perception you have of the issue through the lens of social media, or if you have actual knowledge since you wrote a specific conversation down that you said happened many times. I was wondering if this conversation was rooted in your experience, or if you had some other source as the basis for this conversation. I'm eager to get to the actual substance because then we can see where the nuance lies.

For example, as proof of your assertion that teachers are choosing books for racist reasons, you linked to a source that shows just the opposite -- that books were chosen because they provide perspectives not present in the existing curriculum. You further claimed that parents are saying "don't put books into the curriculum just because the authors are black", but your own evidence shows that is not happening. So maybe this is where the discrepancy lies. One group has a misperception about the motivations of the other. That's something we can work to solve.

So where is the evidence it is happening? What is leading you and others to claim it is? Because again, as an educator, I want to attack that directly. I can't attack that with vague anecdotes. You don't like it either, right? Help me help you.