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Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by phkahler on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @04:23PM (#29323718)
>> They are just using the EULA as the basis for claiming jurisdiction.

IANAL but it's always seemed to me that if I reject the terms of a EULA then the EULA doesn't apply to me. Pushing the "button" does not mean anything because only the EULA gives it meaning and I reject that.

50 years from now if someone is doing software archaeology and they go to install some software from a long gone company, who does clicking the button form an agreement with? Will it be legal to try that software? Can existing software companies list people they have click-through agreements with? These things seem like a bad joke in practical terms.

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by voxic11 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @05:47PM (#29324526)
US contract law jurisprudence doesn't really seem to support you here.

> The mental assent of the parties is not requisite for the formation of a contract. If the words or other acts of one of the parties have but one reasonable meaning, his undisclosed intention is immaterial except when an unreasonable meaning which he attaches to his manifestations is known to the other party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_v._Zehmer

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by phkahler on Wednesday November 24, 2021 @12:31PM (#29332580)
Well (IANAL) but if you want to get into contract law, my understanding is that a contract requires acknowledgement from both parties. It's not really fair to say "the functioning of the software is acknowledgement" when the company granting that permission has no record of it. Ask a CEO on the stand if his company has any binding agreements with the judge.
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday November 25, 2021 @09:26AM (#29341587)
That looks very different:

>Zehmer wrote on the back of the restaurant's receipt stating, "We hereby agree to sell to W. O. Lucy the Ferguson Farm complete for $50,000.00, title satisfactory to buyer". The note was signed by Zehmer and his wife.

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by eganist on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @04:30PM (#29323815)
> 50 years from now if someone is doing software archaeology and they go to install some software from a long gone company, who does clicking the button form an agreement with? Will it be legal to try that software? Can existing software companies list people they have click-through agreements with? These things seem like a bad joke in practical terms.

I mean, this seems pretty easily addressed:

I can't sign a contract with a dead company, can I? Well, literally I can, but the agreement wouldn't be binding.

Same applies here. Unless the entity still exists, in which case congratulations, you're in a binding agreement lol

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @05:31PM (#29324384)
There are some practical problems with this.

Suppose that Small Co sells the assets of a business unit to Big Co. Do you now have a contract with Small Co. or Big Co.? Small Co. no longer has the rights to the software. Big Co. may not agree to the terms of the old license.

Suppose someone dies and their assets go to their heirs. Do you now have a contract with the heirs?

What if there are no heirs, so the assets go to the government? Do you now have a contract with the government? I can think of some fun terms to add to a software license from someone on their deathbed if that's the case.

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by SQueeeeeL on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @05:35PM (#29324426)
I like how suddenly the intense legal minuate are the most important details of a system as if we're in a contract law class, as opposed to the obvious point that in general these agreements are fairly obvious
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @05:41PM (#29324479)
Making up rules without thinking about the consequences of those rules is a Bad Idea.
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by mike_d on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:03PM (#29324667)
What happens to contractual obligations when companies are acquired or dissolved is a matter that is settled law. It has been well thought out and is probably in scope for literally dozens of legal cases a day.

Just because something is new to you, doesn't mean that professionals that deal with this every day have never thought about it.

(The actual answer depends on the State, entity type, if it was dissolved or suspended, if a bankruptcy is involved, etc. and you should just consult a contracts lawyer)

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by SQueeeeeL on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @05:58PM (#29324630)
Edge cases aren't consequences; they're trivia. And at the the of day, our legal system is governed by humans who interpret and argue. Until humans are perfect, we'll never write a perfect law.
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @05:59PM (#29324635)
"Perfection is impossible, therefore don't try" is a dodge.
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by SQueeeeeL on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:09PM (#29324715)
We're not making the laws, we are observers commenting on the status quo. I'm sure no one's losing sleep over hacker news commenters being upset
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by eganist on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:09PM (#29324722)
Are you a practicing attorney?
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by woah on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:55PM (#29325218)
What are the problems here?

> Suppose that Small Co sells the assets of a business unit to Big Co. Do you now have a contract with Small Co. or Big Co.? Small Co. no longer has the rights to the software

That's right, that's what they sold.

> Big Co. may not agree to the terms of the old license.

Then I guess maybe they shouldn't have bought it.

> Suppose someone dies and their assets go to their heirs. Do you now have a contract with the heirs?

Yes. They inherited the deceased's assets.

> What if there are no heirs, so the assets go to the government? Do you now have a contract with the government?

You'd probably have to ask an estate planning attorney about the specifics of this, but so what if you did?

> I can think of some fun terms to add to a software license from someone on their deathbed if that's the case.

You should totally do it lol

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by dcow on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:19PM (#29325444)
So if I sell you a magic rock under the contract that so long as you are in possession of said rock I have legal authority to monitor your household to make sure you don’t misuse the rock for evil, and you die and your heir comes in possession of the rock, I now have a contract with your heir? I can go set up cameras in their house and invade their privacy just because you wanted a magic rock? That doesn't seem right?..
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by _djo_ on Wednesday November 24, 2021 @02:00AM (#29327574)
Contract law isn't absolutist like that, and it can't bind both parties in a way that's unreasonable or contrary to certain basic rights-related laws. That's why you can't contract yourself into slavery.

What'll happen in cases like that is that it'll be litigated, interpreted, and either amended through a settlement agreement or annulled.

As others have said, the law isn't a programming language. It's a human system that, while being rigorous, strict, structured, and binding for the most part, is nonetheless capable by design of nuance and interpretation within known and constrained bounds.

Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by woah on Wednesday November 24, 2021 @07:19PM (#29336842)
It sounds like that contract is a liability. Not a lawyer, but I don't think that liabilities are inherited the same way. Most likely if you wanted to do this, you would structure it as a rental agreement and get the rock back.
Re:Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored... by arcticbull on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:50PM (#29325673)
Probably if the heir accepted the rock during the estate proceedings, but im just speculating.