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Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by bardworx on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:04PM (#29302273)
Disclaimer: i don’t have a dog in the fight…or a branch on a tree, in this context.

Sentient is defined as able to perceive or feel things.

The paper linked discusses how trees can “communicate” and “feel” based on release of specific chemicals.

An exert from the introduction: “Recent research has revealed that plants can sense their neighbours without direct physical contact; mechanisms for this include detection of a reduced ratio of red to far-red in light reflected from neighbouring foliage…”

This was also a plot of a terrible M. Night Shyamalan movie.

That’s the connection the poster suggested, as the bar for sentience is quite low.

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by sillysaurusx on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:22PM (#29302379)
I feel like Star Trek handled the question much better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2WP0hc0NY

Intelligence, self-awareness, and consciousness seem like three reasonable requirements. I don't really buy the "consciousness" requirement, but it's a stab at what most people associate with sentience.

Calling trees sentient is just nonsense. And I mean that literally. I try not to dismiss people's work out of hand, but there's a certain line of philosophical thought whose best rebuttal is to ignore it.

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by plorkyeran on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:44AM (#29303187)
It is very common for Science Fiction to use "sentient" where "sapient" is the correct word. Star Trek is no exception. Calling trees sentient isn't nonsense; your understanding of what the word means is simply incorrect.
Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by 1_player on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:19AM (#29303407)
In fact in Italian, which is close to Latin, "sentire", the root of sentient, means to feel. "Sapere", the root of sapient, means to know.

There's a higher level of intelligence required to "know", rather than to just "feel".

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by usrusr on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:51AM (#29305041)
Is it really incorrect or does the term just happen to be a homonymous collision of more than one semantic concept?

I don't know (it's an actual question I ask myself, not some rhetoric vehicle), but the concept you declare as incorrect is so widespread it makes me wonder... (obviously, the meaning in the legal context we are talking about it's clearly on one side)

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by plorkyeran on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:08PM (#29308718)
Incorrect in the specific context of a scientific or legal discussion which operates using a formalized definition. In normal conversation it is sort of nonsensical to say that the widespread usage of a word is incorrect, as correctness is defined by widespread usage.

The usage in SF stories stands out because often the writer was _intending_ for the word to be using the formalized definition used in science.

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by jhbadger on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:17AM (#29305549)
Traditionally, "sentience" includes consciousness, though. The OED defines it as "The condition or quality of being sentient, consciousness, susceptibility to sensation". It's actually science fiction that invented the concept of "sapient" in the sense you mean it -- the OED just refers to it as an old word for "wise" like Milton writing of "a sapient prince"
Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by simiones on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:54AM (#29305839)
Well, that definition, like most dictionary definitions of complex philosophical or scientific concepts, is circular or too vague. The quality of being sentient is obviously circular, Consciousness is even more vague a concept than sentience, and Susceptibility to sensation is either circular (if we seek to define sensation narrowly) or too vague (if we define sensation broadly - after all, rocks are susceptible to sensation in some sense, as they immediately move when you kick them). This is not a critique of the OED: dictionaries are meant to explain to humans what other humans mean when they use a word, not give an exhaustive understanding of its deeper meanings and implications (encyclopedias aim for that).

When actually trying to rigorously define the word "sentience" we currently have settled on a very basic but measurable criterion: does the living thing we are discussing react to stimuli in its environment, and does it do so in a manner which suggests some kind of memory or other information processing power?

Conversely, consciousness has no similar even slightly rigorous definition, but it is still used as a "higher level" of sentience, sentience + some other stuff that bring you closer to how humans experience the world. Sapience seems to fit somewhere in between.

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by lbotos on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:32PM (#29302424)
> "Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

There are many plants that clearly respond to stimuli (Mimosa pudica(shy plant) as well as the Venus flytrap). As well as almost any plant following the light to grow, as well as plants that send out tendrils to anchor.

> "The subjective awareness of experiences by a conscious individual are known as qualia in Western philosophy"

I'll agree with you that we have no knowledge of plants being conscious.

> "sentience is a minimalistic way of defining consciousness, which otherwise commonly and collectively describes sentience plus further features of the mind and consciousness, such as creativity, intelligence, sapience, self-awareness, and intentionality (the ability to have thoughts about something). These further features of consciousness may not be necessary for sentience, which is the capacity to feel sensations and emotions."

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by shakna on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:33PM (#29302434)
> Intelligence, self-awareness, and consciousness seem like three reasonable requirements. I don't really buy the "consciousness" requirement, but it's a stab at what most people associate with sentience.

That would be _sapience_, not _sentience_. Which is the point. Sentience is a ridiculously low bar to clear.

Re:Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentien... by pdpi on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:44AM (#29304230)
As I understand it, the problem is that you need to define “sentient” somehow, and whatever definition you come up with should be applied consistently to all organisms. If you want to capture all the organisms you think should be called sentient, trees are sentient according to that definition.