News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by bluGill on Sunday November 21, 2021 @09:27PM (#29302048)
I have a problem with those: when the Europeans came they brought with them disease. Other than Columbus's initial contact (which didn't last long as only hit islands), we are no longer dealing with the same situation. The population was greatly reduced and never recovered. This would of course make a lot of major changes to the culture, and for the most part they didn't leave a written record of what things were like before. Gift giving in a culture is something that we cannot learn from unwritten records. Even if there was a written record, in general people write down what they want to be seen as not what they were.

I'm not saying that they didn't give gifts. Lots of people like to give gifts. I'm saying that ownership probably was a bigger deal than we give them credit for - but we will never know.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by mikem170 on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:01AM (#29302949)
> for the most part they didn't leave a written record of what things were like before

Europeans and Native Americans interacted. They observed each other. They talked to each other. For quite some time.

Kondiaronk [0] was a highly respected chief, statesman, and political philosophizer. Louis Armand de Lom d’Arce spent time in North America and wrote a book based on his dialogs with Kondiaronk [1]. This book was famous for a while. It contrasted the freedom and justice Indians had for themselves with the injustice of Christianity, subjugation to lords, and the problems associated with money and other facets of the European way of life. The book precipitated a lot of philosophical soul searching, an off-shoot of which was the idea of the "noble savage", which was used to eventually discount any ideas these primitives had as irrelevant to civilized modern people.

I'm not sure if I understand your comment. Are you saying that Kondiaronk would not have known how Indians lived?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondiaronk

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Voyages_to_North_America

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by bluGill on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:32AM (#29305649)
I'm saying he wouldn't have known how they lived 100 years before he was born, and there were major changes to culture then, caused by disease.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by mikem170 on Monday November 22, 2021 @08:35AM (#29306141)
He was commenting based on the culture he lived in at the time and based on their known history, and how different it was than European culture. He made a point that it was much better in many ways.

I wouldn't think that the spread of smallpox invalidates what he said, just because things may have been different in the past, maybe for his tribe, maybe not so much. I'm sure that he would have known if a disease drastically changed his culture a hundred years prior.

Even before smallpox there was quite a variety of native cultures, Kondiaronk being Huron, who were quite different than the Inca and Aztec, for example. He probably would have criticized them, also.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by bluGill on Monday November 22, 2021 @10:35AM (#29307459)
I'm not saying there is nothing to learn from him. I'm saying be careful as we are limited to his viewpoint. (history is about trying to find a truth from limited information and biases sources)
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by mikem170 on Monday November 22, 2021 @11:26AM (#29308163)
Agreed. I'd say that we've tended to be more biased against and dismissive of his viewpoint, though. Primitive. Noble savage. Convert. Re-educate. Exterminate. etc.