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Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by CamperBob2 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @05:42PM (#29300511)
Not necessarily. In a home-invasion situation, the only person who really knows what's going on is the burglar. I have to assume that he doesn't just want my stuff, he wants to harm me or my family. It's unreasonable to require me to trust the intruder's good faith. These things aren't exactly negotiated in advance.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by maxerickson on Sunday November 21, 2021 @05:43PM (#29300526)
As used there, the word 'invasion' assumes property rights exist.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by chii on Sunday November 21, 2021 @08:00PM (#29301494)
> assumes property rights exist.

which, in the OP's world view, does exist, and it overrides the burglar's right to life.

Your argument against the OP's moralism is that the burglar's right to life should not be overridden by the OP's property rights. This is why moralistic arguments are flawed - different people (perhaps different cultures) have differing morals. The law, as codified by society (and hopefully, agreed to democratically) is what should be used to judge actions, not moralism.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by maxerickson on Sunday November 21, 2021 @08:13PM (#29301582)
Incorrect, I'm pointing out to OP that they are making a moralistic argument. They argue as if their position is objective.

edit: changed "claim" to "argue as if".

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by jojobas on Sunday November 21, 2021 @06:31PM (#29300870)
Rights are a matter of human convention. Property rights are as real as any other rights however.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by CamperBob2 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @05:47PM (#29300541)
How so? I don't follow. It's true that the original question posits a robbery or other home-invasion scenario with the goal of stealing property, but how am I supposed to know that the intruder is only interested in my stuff?
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by maxerickson on Sunday November 21, 2021 @05:52PM (#29300579)
There's no threat created when someone simply moves into a shared space.

The word "burglar" assumes that property rights exist.

Note that I mostly think the inconsistency is silly and should be pointed at, I don't have a problem admitting that property rights exist in most societies.

edit: "intruder" has the same problem as burglar. Along with "home" and "robbery".

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by CamperBob2 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @08:02PM (#29301508)
There's no threat created when someone simply moves into a shared space.

What I'm hearing is that you've never been the victim of any sort of assault.

Lucky guy.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by maxerickson on Sunday November 21, 2021 @08:12PM (#29301576)
No, I'm arguing that the right to protect property is the same sort of social construction that the value of human life is.

Without a layer of social construction, it's just the use of dominating force, an exercise of power. If you want to argue that is how the world works, that's fine, but you are demanding that other people justify their social constructions and then assuming that your social constructions are not social constructions.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by CamperBob2 on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:09PM (#29312121)
but you are demanding that other people justify their social constructions and then assuming that your social constructions are not social constructions.

It's natural for me to defend my property with lethal force. (Consider how many animals will do the same thing, if another animal tries to take their food or mate away.) Consequently, assuming it's your position that I should not be allowed to do that, you have to pass a law and use force to stop me.

That means that yes, you're the one who gets to justify your unnatural (but still potentially optimal) point of view. Exactly why are we better off if we strive to remove the personal safety risk from criminal acts? It seems that we're starting to see the results play out in real time -- ask anyone who was shopping at the Nordstrom's in Walnut Creek the other day, for instance.

Does that mean I'd be inclined to shoot someone for stealing the catalytic converter from my car, parked at curbside on a public street? Honestly, I can't see myself doing that, because according to my personal values that would be a pretty sociopathic thing to do. But I'm also not inclined to interfere if someone else wants to do that. The recent trend towards de-policing and non-prosecution of property crimes will certainly lead to more instances of this kind of dilemma playing out on the street. If law enforcement won't act, you can't be too surprised when individual citizens do.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by alex_sf on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:44PM (#29302846)
What's our address? I'd just like to enter our shared space and borrow our computer. Maybe our wallet too.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by maxerickson on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:47PM (#29302856)
You must have missed the comment elsewhere in the thread where I explained that I do believe in property rights.

I'm making an abstract point about the form of the argument the other commenter constructed upthread, not advocating that property rights aren't real.