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Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by mgraczyk on Sunday November 21, 2021 @03:37PM (#29299468)
As someone who grew up in Texas and is generally in favor of these sorts of "use of deadly force" prosecution defenses, I think I can at least articulate the motivations in a way that makes more sense, even if it's not convincing.

Many Texans conceptualize government and state uses of force (ie prosecution that can lead to imprisonment) as restrictions on their rights. This "negative rights" conceptualization is pretty common in the US, but especially common in Texas.

In the specific case of using deadly force to prevent somebody from stealing your property at night, the idea is something like the following. Absent any government intervention, you have a "property right" which allows you to prevent the thief from taking the property. In some cases, the balance of public policy concerns should lean in favor of government restrictions on this property right, to protect potentially innocent people or to prevent nonviolent criminals from dying, or to sustain an orderly justice system without vigilantes.

However, many Texans believe that the government should not intervene in this case because the restriction on an individual's right to protect his/her property is more important than the other policy goals.

Like I said, this is just my attempt to articulate the way I'd guess many Texans feel about this. I don't necessarily agree with all of the above.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by ramses0 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @05:32PM (#29300442)
To add: an urban and rural split. By geography, Texas is like 85%+ rural or semi-rural.

In $MAJOR_CITY suburbia, you can call 911 and expect police or fire response within 5-15min.

In $RURAL Texas, response times may be significantly longer which helps to explain a self-reliance culture.

Property theft deterrence, prevention, and enforcement being neatly bundled in the revolver at your hip (think 1850s “old west” town) is what was codified into law in Texas. Particularly theft of horses (eg: mobility or necessary farm labor) was severely punished.

Different challenges often call for different responses to be most effective, and it’s helpful to try and understand the situation and expectations before passing judgement.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by redanddead on Sunday November 21, 2021 @08:33PM (#29301728)
I think this is an overlooked part of our daily lives: the impact of things as primordial to the human experience as space and time, and how they shape our socioeconomic, political, and even romantic facet of our lives.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by today20201014 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:16PM (#29299813)
> Many Texans conceptualize government and state uses of force (ie prosecution that can lead to imprisonment) as restrictions on their rights. This "negative rights" conceptualization is pretty common in the US, but especially common in Texas

So, the government/state has guaranteed a negative right to life, i.e. citizens are prohibited from actions that deprive someone's right to life, and in order to enforce this prohibition, citizens are deprived of their right to arbitrarily commit violence to each other, while the government/state has a monopoly.

Where does our right to arbitrarily commit violence come from? Is it just a "natural right"?

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by mgraczyk on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:26PM (#29299892)
See that's why there's a big difference in conceptualization. Texans would certainly not say you have a "right" to arbitrarily commit violence. They conceptualize rights "negatively", as things the state shouldn't take away from you. In this case, the right is the freedom to not not go to prison after protecting your property.

In fact, a Texan may also believe that since you have no right to violence, it would be perfectly fine for a police officer to stop you from using deadly force, as long as that police officer doesn't use deadly force on you!

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by today20201014 on Sunday November 21, 2021 @06:54PM (#29301019)
Thanks, but I guess I just don't understand how this concept - negative rights are things that the state shouldn't take away from you - fits the concept of a "negative" right given here [0]. Following that definition, negative rights require that some actions are not allowed - the government/state (i.e, society?) takes these actions away.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by s1artibartfast on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:20PM (#29302371)
The basic principle is that your negative rights are a prohibition of what others can do to you. If someone violates the negative rights of others, they forfeit theirs.

for example, people have a "negative" right to be free of physical violence. If someone uses physical violence an another, that person forfeits their rights, and the state can use violence against them. It can also take away their freedom of movement and incarcerate them.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by today20201014 on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:18PM (#29309766)
> The basic principle is that your negative rights are a prohibition of what others can do to you.

Agreed - rights that are guaranteed by prohibiting certain actions, i.e. you have a right to $FOO, meaning that $BAR is prohibited.

Compare with:

> They conceptualize rights "negatively", as things the state shouldn't take away from you.

The formulation seems a little different: you have a right to $FOO, meaning that $BAR is allowed ("the state shouldn't take [$BAR] away from you").

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by mgraczyk on Sunday November 21, 2021 @07:33PM (#29301286)
The way it would fit:

You have a negative right to freedom from the state: the state can't lock you up without a good reason.

Also relevant, you have a negative right to your property: someone can't take your property from you.

Contrast with a postive-right versions of these two things, right to due process and right to property protection by the police.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by bollu on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:06PM (#29302288)
I don't grok the real difference between the positive and negative rights example. Do these lead to different policy decisions? I'd like to know.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by esyir on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:39AM (#29304196)
In the property case, my understanding is that people cannot take your property, this you are permitted to defend your property.

In the positive rights case, the state extends property protection via the law and police, thereby implicitly granting you property rights. This is a grant, and you are not allowed to defend your own property?

That's my rough reading of ops text.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:21PM (#29299853)
> Where does our right to arbitrarily commit violence come from? Is it just a "natural right"?

If you down the rabbit hole far enough, rights do not come from anywhere other than the extent to which an opposing party is able to punish you. Aka, might makes right.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by qweqwweqwe-90i on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:23PM (#29299869)
What's wrong with choosing rights democratically?
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by bluGill on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:49PM (#29300087)
Minority rights.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by qweqwweqwe-90i on Sunday November 21, 2021 @05:15PM (#29300289)
You either believe in a democracy or you don’t. Minority rights have been pretty well protected through democratic decisions.
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by lowkey_ on Sunday November 21, 2021 @09:15PM (#29301976)
Minority rights are well-protected in America as a constitutional republic.

An actual direct democracy, like Switzerland, isn't as great as protecting minority rights. There's plenty of examples of democracies trampling minority rights, and there is a legitimate fear of tyrannical majority in most democracies.

America is quite unique in its system and how well it protects rights.

Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by bluGill on Sunday November 21, 2021 @08:31PM (#29301712)
Sometimes, but not all times. It depends on what minority
Re:Why thieves love to steal catalytic converters by qweqwweqwe-90i on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:05PM (#29302282)
I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. And also to try and change the situation democratically.