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Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by onlyrealcuzzo on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:03PM (#29221995)
Would 80% be ideal? I would imagine Solar would start getting iffy over 50%.

Presumably you want a lot of hydroelectric, wind, and nuclear so you don't need a lot of batteries, and you have enough sources of power when the sun isn't shining.

Maybe I'm being un-imaginative - but is anyone envisioning a global energy grid so we could have solar energy from Australia and Sahara shipped to North America during our night - and back to Asia and Europe from the Southwest during our day??

^ This seems nonsense science fiction.

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by colechristensen on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:56PM (#29222340)
This is the problem, don’t just imagine your guess is correct. Actually look at daily load cycles and solar production variability. Also imagine dynamic pricing causing demand patterns to change, and things like electric vehicle charging which could be done flexibly.

Even now peak demand and peak solar production are fairly close daily.

We’re going to enter an energy economy where production isn’t just instantaneously controlled but supply is going to be a bit more dynamic and pricing is going to reflect that. There have already been demonstrated markets where this has been efficiently handled.

For a while there will be things like occasional negative pricing, but once users figure out how to take advantage of this prices normalize and usage will better match capacity patterns and new power installations will match new demand patterns.

Intuition on what you guess will be the case is a bad way to make arguments about infrastructure. Go look up actual data.

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by toomuchtodo on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:42PM (#29222225)
South Australia already gets the majority of their energy from renewables [1] [2]. They recently commissioned (end of Oct '21) two synchronous condensers [3] that allow for a reduction in thermal generation for grid frequency support. (EDIT: See my below comment for retraction of this broad statement: "They have the lowest energy costs in Australia"), and have only had an hour or two of outages in the last five years.

[1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-makes-big-leap-t...

[2] https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=1y&interval=1w

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_condenser

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by wisdomdata on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:56PM (#29222339)
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/average-electrici...

South Australia does not have cheaper electricity bills. We also had a multi-day outage in 2016 which was partially due to wind generators shedding load. Large scale solar also periodically turn off rather than pay to add power to the grid due to too much installed capacity and no suitable storage.

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by BLKNSLVR on Sunday November 14, 2021 @09:22PM (#29222905)
There's a lot more nuance to the 2016 event. Ironically, the wind generators could have saved SA from a multi-hour blackout but the "settings" being used by the wind farms were overly paranoid (in my simple understanding) and caused them to shut-off before their more realistic danger limits were reached.

This is more of a failure of development and regulation of standards, which, I believe, have now been resolved. Said standards had already been developed in countries that had more experience in wind generation than Australia.

The "cause" was unprecedented wind speeds that brought down a few of the big "giraffes" that carry high voltage wires across the state and the interconnectors between states. See article below for example photo.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-28/sa-statewide-blackout...

A lot of good has actually come out of that event, none related to the politicking.

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by toomuchtodo on Sunday November 14, 2021 @08:11PM (#29222430)
Your link's sources are "Canstar Blue electricity customer satisfaction survey, January 2021." I will argue the reliability of that data source, and you can consult OpenNEM's price data per region (note that Western Australia [SWIS], while on OpenNEM, is not a part of the NEM grid). The blackout you mention was over five years ago, as my comment mentioned ("and have only had an hour or two of outages in the last five years."). Large scale solar does have to curtail when the spot price goes negative, which is leading to the development of new transmission to New South Wales [1]. The price of power frequently goes negative during daylight hours in SA due to an abundance of renewables.

[1] https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/09/30/nsw-gives-a...

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by wisdomdata on Sunday November 14, 2021 @08:26PM (#29222554)
I would argue actual bills paid (as shown in the camstar data) is important to the average voter vs wholesale price as you have quoted.
Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by toomuchtodo on Sunday November 14, 2021 @08:59PM (#29222774)
I would agree retail rates are more relevant than wholesale rates, while at the same time, there's a lot of noise in what the "average" is. If you're exposed to the spot price (Time of Use plans/tariffs) and judicious about when you use electricity, it will be very cheap. If you are not exposed to the spot price, and/or you use a lot of power when rates are higher, your power will be very expensive. I've spent ~30 minutes looking for a reliable indicator of retail rates for residential customers, and I can't find one other than customer surveys. I did find a release from the SA premier indicating $350 million AUD in electrical energy savings over the last two years [1]. Also, this post [2] asserts SA to have the lowest wholesale rates (per Australian Energy Market Operator/AEMO) in Australia by early next year.

I rescind my statement from my higher level comment that "They have the lowest energy costs in Australia"; the data is incomplete, there are multiple factors at play between generators, transmission, and retail supplier cost variations, and it was too broad of a statement considering all of the factors involved (when I should've referred specifically to wholesale rates influenced by renewables).

[1] https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/news/media-releases/news/bang-...

[2] https://indaily.com.au/news/business/2021/05/10/rise-of-sa-r...

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by ac29 on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:23PM (#29222107)
> Would 80% be ideal? I would imagine Solar would start getting iffy over 50%.

Depends on how much storage you have. There is very, very little right now so even 50% might be a stretch.

> Maybe I'm being un-imaginative - but is anyone envisioning a global energy grid so we could have solar energy from Australia and Sahara shipped to North America during our night - and back to Asia and Europe from the Southwest during our day??

I'd think you'd need a relatively inexpensive superconducting cable for that to make any sense. Running cables between continents has been a thing for over 150 years, but I'd think resistance losses would make it wildly impractical to power, say, Los Angeles with solar power collected in Australia.

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by shakna on Sunday November 14, 2021 @10:14PM (#29223244)
> but I'd think resistance losses would make it wildly impractical to power, say, Los Angeles with solar power collected in Australia.

Allow me to present to you the "Australia-Asia Power Link" [0], exporting solar power a distance of about 4,500km, which is still less than half of LA to Australia, but not insignificant.

What governs the practicality is often more complex than just power loss. Carbon credits, local taxation, and plain ol' bureaucracy can make it more profitable to export than to consume.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by ben_w on Monday November 15, 2021 @03:52PM (#29232564)
Resistance losses aren’t a huge problem (standard currently available HVDC can do 3.5% loss per 1000km, or 1-(0.965^20) = 51% loss between opposite points of the planet, which is fine given how cheap PV is).

The cost for both is the big thing: even just assuming overnight electricity replacement, 12 hours * 2 TW * $100/kWh = $2.4 trillion; the 8 GW English Channel link cost $1.6/km[0][1], which a naive scaling up to 20 Mm and 2 TW would cost $8 trillion. Then the question is “which lasts longer, and which is harder to refurbish at end of life?”. (Numbers are just a guideline. On the one hand there is less demand at night and there will probably be wind and geothermal in the mix, on the other hand we want something that allows everyone to have an energy use currently only available to rich people and this doesn’t cover anything except mere electricity).

I have not been able to find the size of the global energy industry in dollars per year to compare this to, only an un-cited claim of “$5 trillion per year … subsidizing the fossil fuel industries”.

That said, at this scale I have to ask about the economics of making an orbital ring, transferring power kinetically in what is essentially a ballistic superconductor[2], and now you can put the PV in space on the ring without having to solve the political aspects of “can I convince everyone else I’ve not sneakily designed my power satellite to be used as a death ray, and can I be sure everyone else’s can’t all be told to collectively focus on one place even if I trust the owners’ intentions?” that usually follows any discussion of space-based solar.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Co...

[1] I’m ignoring converter stations because over 1 Mm they amortise to negligible

[2] i.e. purely classical and without the fun quantum magnetic effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_conduction

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by pydry on Monday November 15, 2021 @01:41AM (#29224479)
Grid scale batteries became cost effective within the last year or so, though.

It's at the same point solar/wind were a few years ago when they were the cheapest form of energy but received a lot of criticism for making up a small % of total production.

Naturally that changed.

Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by moritonal on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:42PM (#29222228)
Fun fact, I think Russia has the longest single electric network. So long in fact the network in the East runs a half phase behind the West!
Re:Colorado 'solar garden' is a farm under solar panels by datameta on Monday November 15, 2021 @01:34PM (#29230793)
Here's a great video from Real Engineering [0] that goes into the pros and problems with that approach, and where and how it is currently being tried. For example, via undersea transmission cable under the Strait of Gibraltar.

[0] https://youtu.be/7OpM_zKGE4o