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Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DonHopkins on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:40AM (#29186226)
No, I mean that BooKing.com is morally flexible enough to hire anyone who claims they are willing to program in Perl, because it's so damned hard to find good Perl programmers who don't know any other languages they enjoy programming in more, and can't find better jobs than programming in Perl.

If BooKing.com were trying to hire JavaScript programmers, they'd have a vastly more enormous pool of young and old, well educated and self taught, local and remote, highly experienced and self motivated talent to hire from, and wouldn't have to be so flexible about who they hired to program in Perl.

And the moral flexibility of that company (not the programmers) also expresses itself through those "dark UX patterns" that BooKing.com is so famous for.

(Although they should probably talk to somebody about their domain name: I always assumed BooKing.com was an anti-royalist web site. ;) )

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by sokoloff on Thursday November 11, 2021 @07:51AM (#29187343)
I don’t see how being flexible on hiring to meet the market is being morally flexible. There’s nothing immoral about it that I can see.
Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DocTomoe on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:31AM (#29186846)
> If BooKing.com were trying to hire JavaScript programmers, they'd have a vastly more enormous pool of young and old, well educated and self taught, local and remote, highly experienced and self motivated talent to hire from, and wouldn't have to be so flexible about who they hired to program in Perl.

Yes, but then they'd get results in Javascript, which has it's own security nightmares (like npm's recent third-party-code-injection incident.) Given their business most likely involves the need to quickly parse huge amount of text files (think: hotel booking information, SABRE info, ...), Perl might just be the right tool for the job.

I don't know about booking.com's hiring platform, but in my subjective experience, Perl people tend to be more professional and more careful than JS folks.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DonHopkins on Thursday November 11, 2021 @07:05AM (#29187041)
Sure, people make mistakes and create bugs and security holes in every language. And some languages like PHP attract newbies who know no other language. And other languages like Perl 5 are so syntactically complex that they repel newbies.

But how many schools and classes and youtube videos teach JavaScript? And how many teach Perl?

The fact that there are a lot of bad JavaScript programmers isn't a symptom of JavaScript programmers being bad. It's a symptom of there being a lot of JavaScript programmers. There are also a lot of really excellent JavaScript and TypeScript programmers, just not as many as bad ones.

(But I bet there are more good JavaScript/TypeScript programmers than all Perl 5 programmers plus all Raku programmers (counting everyone who knows both twice), by far.)

To make a gross understatement, TypeScript's evolution from JavaScript didn't take as long, went smoother, wasn't as incompatible, and was more interoperable, successful, and popular than Raku's evolution from Perl 5.

Not to mention it's much easier for a JavaScript programmer to learn TypeScript, and to upgrade JavaScript code to TypeScript code, than moving from Perl 5 to Raku.

(And I also bet BooKing.com isn't upgrading from Perl 5 to Raku any time soon.)

There are more great JavaScript and TypeScript programmers available to hire than mediocre Perl 5 programmers, because Perl 5 is effectively a dead language, while JavaScript and TypeScript are both ubiquitous, thriving, widely taught languages.

JavaScript shops (and also Python and C# and Java shops) actually have the option of not hiring the bad programmers and intelligence agency plants, and hiring lots of the good programmers.

PS: BooKing.com could easily be confused with the evil "King Boo", Luigi's antagonistic arch-nemesis, and scheming ally of Bowser! Why doesn't Nintendo send them a cease and desist for acting so villainous, and seise their rightful domain in the name of King Boo? ;)

https://www.mariowiki.com/King_Boo

>King Boo is the leader of the Boos and ghosts, ruler of the Paranormal Dimension, the main antagonist of the Luigi's Mansion series, and the arch-nemesis of Luigi. He is also an ally of Bowser, who has aided him in his various schemes. He is more than capable of devising and enacting villainous plans by himself, including his capture and imprisonment of Mario. Although not the biggest Boo, King Boo has abilities that far surpass that of the average ghost; he wields a number of impressive magical abilities, including the ability to materialize objects. King Boo's magical power is directly proportional to the number of Boos in his vicinity.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by b20000 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @07:50AM (#29187334)
javascript implies well educated? so much LOL here. maybe perl programmers are happy with perl and have no interest in learning yet another programming language.
Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by zinekeller on Thursday November 11, 2021 @08:03AM (#29187432)
While there are many Javascript "developers" that don't deserve that title, there are much much more actually-good JS developers than actually-good Perl developers, not to mention the willingness to program Javascript than Perl.
Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by b20000 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @08:17AM (#29187514)
i might be able to accept that there are more javascript developers than perl developers. this then implies there are more good javascript developers, but only if javascript does not attract more wannabe developers. and i think that might be the issue.
Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DonHopkins on Thursday November 11, 2021 @09:16AM (#29188040)
No, seriously, there is absolutely no comparison between the number of Perl 5 and JavaScript developers.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020

Most popular technologies:

JavaScript: 67.7% for all devs, 69.7% for pro devs): First place!

Perl: 3.1% for all devs, 3.3% with pro devs: Third from last place, only a wee bit more popular than Haskel and Julia!

And you can take a guess at how many jobs for Haskel and Julia programmers there are.

And it's not like good Perl 5 programmers are dropping dead, or being hit by busses: They're simply moving on to better, more popular, well supported, widely taught, more modern, higher paying, more pleasurable languages!

Any programmer who permanently sticks to only one language and has "no interest in learning yet another programming language" simply isn't a good programmer, no matter what their only language is.

Any decent professional programmer (ESPECIALLY web developers) should have no trouble picking up and applying new languages, and regularly using multiple languages together at the same time every day. The world is not partitions into mono-linguistic silos, and no one language is good for everything.

If those monolinguistic Perl 5 developers b20000 speaks of who refuse to use any other languages are the only ones left for BooKing.com to hire, then it's no wonder they have enormous security holes and terrible buggy hard-to-maintain code.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3026446/the-fall-of-perl-the-web...

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DonHopkins on Thursday November 11, 2021 @09:27AM (#29188138)
No, I actually meant to indicate that there is a densely populated multidimensional spectrum of young to old, local to remote, well education to self taught, highly experienced to self motivated.

While generally speaking, most remaining Perl 5 programmers are old, remote, self taught, highly experienced, very busy, hard to find, and extremely expensive.

There aren't many schools and universities and bootcamps and online learning sites and youtube channels cranking out new Perl 5 programmers that I know of. But there are a hell of a lot of them for JavaScript.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by b20000 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @10:11AM (#29188650)
the job of a university is to teach CS, not a specific programming language. javascript is just a language like any other, there is nothing particularly good about it. it became popular because a scripting language was needed in browsers and because every idiot out there wants to become a web developer because they think they will be zuckerburg in 6 months. indeed, there are endless programming bootcamps parasiting off these people as you pointed out.

finally, it is perfectly valid to choose to become BETTER in a tool set instead of learning a new one every year. i’m pretty sure there are many developers out there who have no interest in learning other languages and are content in spending their valuable time learning other skills that are more valuable.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DonHopkins on Thursday November 11, 2021 @02:38PM (#29192165)
Anti-intellectualism and refusal to learn any other language isn't going to get you a good job or much interesting experience.

You can get better in one language by learning and using several other different languages (the more languages and the more different, the better), which expands the scope of what you know how to do in ANY language.

And if you refuse to learn more than one language, that limits yourself to tasks that don't involve multiple languages, which is a large proportion of the typical tasks a professional programmer encounters. Many common tasks are impossible to do in only one language, since all libraries and apps aren't written in the same language.

Again, my point that you haven't countered is:

Any programmer who permanently sticks to only one language and has "no interest in learning yet another programming language" simply isn't a good programmer, no matter what their only language is.

Any decent professional programmer (ESPECIALLY web developers) should have no trouble picking up and applying new languages, and regularly using multiple languages together at the same time every day. The world is not partitions into mono-linguistic silos, and no one language is good for everything.

If those monolinguistic Perl 5 developers b20000 speaks of who refuse to use any other languages are the only ones left for BooKing.com to hire, then it's no wonder they have enormous security holes and terrible buggy hard-to-maintain code.

Have you ever actually met any of those hypothetical monolinguistic Perl 5 developers in person who you're "pretty sure" exist, and actually discussed with them why they refuse to learn or use any other language, and asked them who they work for, and what they work on, and how they enjoy it?

Or will you actually admit to being a monolinguistic Perl 5 programmer yourself, and answer those questions about yourself, please? Or are the people you speak of entirely theoretical and unknown to you?

If you are saying that Perl 5 makes people give up learning other languages, that sounds like a horrible thing about Perl 5, because it's so discouraging, but unfortunately it's probably partly correct for some people.

But not all programming languages are as hard to learn, and program in, and read, and debug, and maintain, and find good jobs for, and hire good programmers for, as Perl 5!

Please don't give up just because you picked the wrong first language to learn.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by b20000 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @03:44PM (#29192916)
Any programmer who permanently sticks to only one language and has "no interest in learning yet another programming language" simply isn't a good programmer, no matter what their only language is.

You have not given any reasonable proof for this. If this were true, just to give you one example, linux kernel programmers would be bad programmers.

I used to use Perl for web development, but quit web development years ago. I use primarily one or two programming languages and have zero interest in learning other languages. And that's OK. I've brought multiple succesful products to market. I have chosen what I want to do and have no time or energy to follow fads.

My comments have nothing to do with anti-intellectualism.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by DonHopkins on Friday November 12, 2021 @01:08AM (#29196729)
I think you are confusing a program that is written in one programming language with people who only program in one programming language.

So name some linux kernel programmers you actually know for a fact that they only know and program in one programming language?

I bet I can name a lot more Linux kernel programmers who know and use multiple programming languages.

Have you considered the possibility that most Linux kernel programmers might have also worked on other programs than the Linux kernel (and didn't just jump into the deep end of Linux kernel hacking as their first job) and actually know and use some other languages other than C? Like maybe Bash, or Assembly, or Python, or Lua, or TCL, or Lisp, or C++, or FORTH, or Pascal, or Fortran, or Java, or C#, or Lord forbid even Perl?

Because Linux kernel hackers tend to be experienced, professional programmers, who know and use multiple languages, not monolinguistic amateurs who gave up learning new languages after only learning C, then started hacking the Linux kernel as their first and only project.

Re:American spy hacked Booking.com, company stayed silent by b20000 on Friday November 12, 2021 @10:00AM (#29199868)
i have also used many other programming languages in the past out of sudden necessity just like anyone else. that does not mean i have any interest in maintaining those or learning new languages. i don’t need to be lectured on what i need to do, thanks.

i know perfectly well what point i am making and you do not have to spin this differently and try to make me look like a fool. you stated that anyone who is not interested in learning a new language is a bad programmer, and you are wrong. people make choices for different reasons.