Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by rusk on Monday November 08, 2021 @02:23PM
(#29153100)
I've no doubt he was very much a hardliner in his day.
What I'm speculating about is what he would have thought today, after the last 10 years and the maturation of reddit, facebook and co. Provided he hadn't spent that entire time incarcerated of course!
Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by kragen on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:41PM
(#29155239)
I don't think you should be speculating that he would endorse the repulsive views he spent his life struggling against, any more than you should be hurling a bunch of epithets at me. Please stop.
Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by rusk on Monday November 08, 2021 @06:27PM
(#29155696)
Epithets? What epithets? We’re having a fairly civilised discussion here. I’m about his age, and believed many of the things that he believed and I’ve seen my attitudes soften somewhat over the last few years. If anything, it is you trying to diminish my experience with your high handed rhetoric.
Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by kragen on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:26PM
(#29156182)
I was quoting from the excerpt I quoted above, not saying you were hurling epithets. I think that what you're doing is equally offensive.
I don't think you believed the things he believed for the same reason he did, in part because the quality of this conversation is so spectacularly different from any conversation I ever had with him.
Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by rusk on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @02:57AM
(#29158942)
That’s just snobbery.
Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by kragen on Monday November 22, 2021 @11:32PM
(#29314617)
You chose to commemorate my dead friend's birthday by speculating that, if he were still alive, he would have come to agree with your own odious and repugnant views, views he spent his life fighting against, offering nothing in the way of evidence. I deplore your conduct, and I do not think he ever would have done something similar. Dismissing my criticism as "snobbery" is in keeping with the rest of your vile calumny, but it is not a valid argument.
Re:Aaron Swartz Rememberance Day This Monday
by ohbleek on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:02AM
(#29173725)
As someone that once considered themself a hardliner as well, I have found that the last ten years have had the very effect you’re addressing. The truth is there’s a lot of nuance in this topic and it’s beginning to look like a hardline stance resulted in destroying people counter to what Aaron wanted.
So I have my own justification for freedom of speech: because we can. Human freedom is important, so we should try to protect it from encroachment wherever possible. With most freedoms — freedom of motion, freedom of exchange, freedom of action — permitting them in full would cause some problems. People shouldn’t be free to walk into other people’s bedrooms, take all their stuff, and then punch the poor victims in the face. But hurling a bunch of epithets at the guy really isn’t so bad.
Freedom of speech is one place where we can draw the line and say: all of this is acceptable. There’s no further logic to it than that; freedom of speech is not an instrumental value. Like all freedom, it’s fundamental, and the only reason we happen to single it out is because it’s more reasonable than all of the others.
Close readers will note that this theory doesn’t quite live up to my own goals. By laying freedom of speech’s provision on top of our reasonable ability to do so, I suggest that freedom of speech could be taken away if providing it became unreasonable. But I think this is the right choice: if people really, seriously started getting hurt because of freedom of speech, it seems right for people to take the privilege away. But, to be honest, I can’t even imagine how that might be possible. Words just don’t genuinely wound, they’re always mediated by our listening.
I do worry that people might try to stretch this justification — say that continued free speech might destroy the war effort, or the government, or civil society. But I have no problem destroying all of those. It’s only the destruction of actual people that I worry about.