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Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by dekhn on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:23PM (#29152395)
I only have a limited understanding of nuclear reactors, but IIUC these would have produced nuclear waste, which we currently don't have any long-term storage plans for. Not having storage plans for this waste (beyond "put it in pools of water near the reactors, or maybe send it to south carolina) suggests to me that nuclear power may not actually be a workable solution. Sorry to sound ignorant, but it seems like building 500 plants would exacerbate that problem dramatically.

Doesn't it seem like solar + batteries is a much better solution? We could cover large parts of the US with solar panels, store it during the day, and charge large fleets of electric cars overnight. Then, the issue is one of non-radioactive toxic waste storage instead of radioactive toxic waste storage, which seems a bit more tractable.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by PaulHoule on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:29PM (#29152471)
The cost of batteries is declining rapidly, but it is still an order of magnitude too high. Will it get low enough? We don't know.

Most of the time you can get away with a relatively small amount of storage but sometimes you get an extended "dry spell", so you might need two weeks or more storage to be entirely reliable.

Renewables have been workable so far because of low-cost gas turbines fired by methane that take up the slack: we know now that methane is 80 or so times more potent a global warming gas than carbon dioxide, so if you lose 1% of the gas in handling it is a big problem.

The fact is that nuclear waste is not waste. The light water reactor extracts about 1% of the energy that a fast reactor could extract from uranium. In fact, molten salt fast reactors can not only consume plutonium and other actinides but also destroy a good fraction of the most dangerous fission products.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by ekiwi on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:56PM (#29152830)
> nuclear waste is not waste

There is a lot more to nuclear waste than just the fuel rods. Lots of materials that are either used by workers at the plant or part of the plant become radio active and can no longer go to a regular landfill of other trash processing facilities. That is why some energy companies are trying to default rather than pay for decommissioning plants once they have reached the maximum age that they were constructed for.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by oceanplexian on Monday November 08, 2021 @02:23PM (#29153106)
There's a much bigger problem with solar than storage: Energy Density. And energy density isn't a problem we can solve, it's bounded by the laws of physics.

An average nuclear power plant puts out 1GW of energy in under 2.5 square kilometers, or 1 square mile. To achieve the same output (Since you'd need double the panels + storage to produce energy at night) you'd need to destroy 450 square kilometers of natural habitat to generate the same energy with solar panels. Realistically you'd need much more than that to account for cloudy days, and even more to offset electrical transmission losses because no one is building a solar farm in latitudes that see 100+ cloudy days per year.

Detractors of nuclear will argue "Why don't we do rooftop solar".. well, 56% of the world's population lives in cities where that's not possible, and that number isn't decreasing. NYC for example uses on the order of ~50GW or 51 Terawatts per year. You'd have to cover 15% of the state in silicon glass to get anywhere close to powering it. Personally, I'd rather take a chance on nuclear in lieu of the the massive amount of environmental destruction required to power modern society with solar energy.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by hebrox on Monday November 08, 2021 @02:47PM (#29153392)
Doing a quick sanity check, I think you're off by about 10x.

93% capacity factor nuclear [0]

1 GW

8700000000 kWh/year [1]

440 Wp @ 1960x1308x40 mm [2]

1.96 m

1.308 m

2.56368 m2

440 Wp

0.85 kWh factor for the Netherlands [3]

374 kWh per year

145.8840417 kWh/m2

59636406.42 m2 for to match nuclear

59.63640642 km2

[0] https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nuclear-power-most-reliab...

[1] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+GW+to+kwh+per+year

[2] https://www.enfsolar.com/pv/panel-datasheet/crystalline/1049...

[3] https://www.tentensolar.nl/semi-overheid/dossiers/item/zonne...

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by dane-pgp on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:44PM (#29153981)
Excellent sanity check, and I'll add another calculation for comparison.

449 nuclear reactors in the world [0]

2 disasters leading to large exclusion zones

average area of those exclusion zones 1300 square miles [1]

average exclusion zone per reactor (very roughly) 5.8 square miles

15.0 square kilometres

So solar panels use up about 4 times as much space as "average" nuclear reactors (not including the relatively small area used by the plant itself[2]), but of course the value of land with solar panels on is much higher than radioactively contaminated land.

[0] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/11/countries-that-have-t...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152930

[2] https://www.nei.org/news/2015/land-needs-for-wind-solar-dwar...

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by rich_sasha on Monday November 08, 2021 @04:58PM (#29154795)
To some extent, for a fair comparison, you should also use old sole panel efficiency here. Nuclear power plants have progressed tremendously in terms of safety.

There’s also widespread reporting that the evacuations and exclusion zones, in Fukushima at least, were excessive.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by dekhn on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:15AM (#29162785)
Nuclear waste is waste. That's what's sitting in big piles in pools all around the country. My point was entirely political, basically if the obama administration can kill a good idea like Yucca after a decade+ of research, it's clear we don't have the political will to deploy nuclear in the US.
Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by pfdietz on Monday November 08, 2021 @03:08PM (#29153603)
That "dry spell" storage doesn't need to be batteries. It will have a low number of charge/discharge cycles, so what you want is low capital cost, and you don't care much about round trip efficiency. Hydrogen burned in turbines serves this need rather well compared to batteries.
Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by ZeroGravitas on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:55PM (#29152817)
Coal and oil also release methane as part of the production process. Gas isn't as good as renewables, but a shift to using gas produced electricity for heating and EVs etc with or without renewables is still a good move.
Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by rich_sasha on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:27PM (#29152439)
Storing nuclear waste is a problem, but seems somewhat exaggerated. We have been doing it quite successfully. Waste reprocessing drastically reduces that amount too.

Renewables + batteries, why not. This technology is not at a stage yet where we can use it. There are literally no “guaranteed power on demand” facilities from renewables+batteries.

Nuclear technology is mostly old and boring by now.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by vkou on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:28PM (#29152451)
> I only have a limited understanding of nuclear reactors, but IIUC these would have produced nuclear waste, which we currently don't have any long-term storage plans for.

We currently have an inefficient long-term storage plan for it - store it on-site.

We had an efficient, cheaper long-term storage plan (Yucca mountain) that failed for political, not technical reasons.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by PaulHoule on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:32PM (#29152495)
Nuclear waste is not waste.

The LWR extracts about only 1% of the energy from uranium. Next generation reactors like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ApH-0YHkA

can burn much more of the fuel and even destroy much of the dangerous fission products.

Looking at it that way we've already mined enough fuel to run our civilization for a few hundred years. It's good news.

Re:China to supercharge uranium race with 150 new nuclear re... by Yoofie on Monday November 08, 2021 @01:30PM (#29152480)
> but IIUC these would have produced nuclear waste, which we currently don't have any long-term storage plans for.

As with most of America's problems, this is an entirely political problem, not a technical one.