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Re:Elite Underproduction by civilized on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:31PM (#29142073)
I can't help but wonder if the current economy, with all its inequality and disproportionate rewards for the highly skilled, is a necessary step on the path towards changing the anti-intellectual US culture.

You get more of what you reward and less of what you don't. It's not always a pleasant truth, but it's a powerful one.

Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:37PM (#29142139)
Calling it a “step” implies moving in that direction. But the problem in America is that the counter-movement against “anti-intellectualism” is just as anti-intellectual. More people are going to college, but they’re not majoring in math and science. We have an ever expanding ecosystem of non-rigorous *studies fields. These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns. At least the latter has demonstrated itself as a framework capable of socially supporting communities of people who build things. The former has no track record whatsoever.

You can see this exemplified in the fact that, even as we are mocking people for not going to college, we are lowering academic standards and getting rid of gifted programs: https://www.teachforamerica.org/one-day/opinion/stop-elimina.... It’s magical thinking on all sides.

Re:Elite Underproduction by _jal on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:58PM (#29142340)
> These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns.

Since you seem to be a fan of intellectual rigor, can you describe the process by which you arrive at the relative worth of (apparently) social science programs vs. small town social behavior?

Can that method also tell us whether citrus flavors are more valuable than ballet?

Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Sunday November 07, 2021 @06:30PM (#29144620)
Both social sciences and cultural studies are quite self consciously meant to be applied to understanding and improving society. It’s not the study of dead societies, but our own.

Culture, meanwhile, is the organically developed heuristics and norms of communities.

You can measure the relative worth of these things by looking at the functioning of society on various metrics. Unlike say civil engineers, practitioners of *studies and social sciences have demonstrated little ability to come into a community and make live measurably better for everyone. Arguably, as traditional social norms have been eroded, many communities are less healthy than ever—much more so than you’d expect looking at just the economic numbers. Millennials as a generation are the richest ever, yet seem profoundly unhappy and unsatisfied.

Re:Elite Underproduction by ClumsyPilot on Sunday November 07, 2021 @09:53PM (#29145756)
"Millennials as a generation are the richest ever"

That's plain wrong, they have less disposable income and lower net worth than the two generations before them had at the same stage in their life.

Just because stock market grew doesn't mean life of an average Joe improved.

Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Monday November 08, 2021 @12:55AM (#29146439)
They’re following the same trajectory as previous generations: https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2021/09/01/who-is-the-w...

This stuff is complicated so make sure you’re comparing like with like. Even the chart above ignored one critical adjustment: in 1970 just 5% of the population was foreign born, while today its 15%. Millennials are much more likely today to be recent economic migrants, or the children of them, than boomers. That drags the numbers down, but doesn’t imply anything negative about millennials’ economic status. Indeed, those immigrants are experiencing upward economic mobility, and are seeing themselves that way. The dour attitude among millennials seems to be mainly on the native born, who really are doing as well or better than their parents.

At least, they’re doing better economically. Thanks to social changes, they have less agency than their parents did. They have few opportunities to garner authority and respect in their communities. They’re not building families and getting the hope that comes from nurturing the next generation. They have many reasons to be dour. Their parents failed them!

Re:Elite Underproduction by ClumsyPilot on Monday November 08, 2021 @05:35AM (#29147930)
Thats a good perspective and adjustment, but we know wealth inequality has increased, and a few billionaires can inflate that number unrealistically - it would be good to compare median and standard deviation.
Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Monday November 08, 2021 @07:17AM (#29148544)
Wealth inequality has increased, particularly the upper middle class pulling away: https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-dangerous-separation-...
Re:Elite Underproduction by barry-cotter on Sunday November 07, 2021 @05:21PM (#29144107)
Nothing he said referenced the social sciences in any way. He referred to * Studies. The Social Sciences all aim at truth in some way, whether you're talking about Sociology, Anthropology, Economics or Political Science.
Re:Elite Underproduction by civilized on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:39PM (#29142161)
The *studies folks are complaining loudly and bitterly of their debt and not having cushy jobs handed to them on a silver platter. In principle this should encourage future students not to take those paths.

I agree that I don't like the direction we're headed, but hopefully the natural consequences of that direction will encourage people to revisit their ideological assumptions.

Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:46PM (#29142220)
The natural consequences of this will be China overtaking the US. Americans are not going to enjoy a world where they’re not the dominant power. Among other things they’re really going to hate not being able to print money for consumption free of consequences.
Re:Elite Underproduction by civilized on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:49PM (#29142255)
It's a concern, but a strong dollar isn't all roses and sunshine either. For one thing, it makes it hard for the American economy to compete in anything but the highest-margin industries.

I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so, but their "arguments" are mostly just paranoia and sentimentality.

Re:Elite Underproduction by xyzelement on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:27PM (#29143665)
> I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so

You're not convinced that going from "living in the most economically dominant and militarily powerful country in the world" to "not" is going to somehow not be a painful experience?

You can use the "I am not convinced" line for anything. "I am not convinced that being homeless is worse than living in a nice house" but... ok, what would convince you?

Re:Elite Underproduction by civilized on Sunday November 07, 2021 @06:17PM (#29144538)
What's the big deal whose GDP is bigger? You think China's going to invade us?

Maybe it's good that other groups of people besides Americans and Europeans can make leading contributions to economic growth, science and technology.

Maybe America's dominance is mainly good for the rich and those who like to invade countries on a whim. I don't care about either of those groups.

Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Monday November 08, 2021 @12:59AM (#29146459)
A lot of our ability to simply ignore reality—e.g. budget deficits, or comically high infrastructure costs—comes from having the biggest economy and being the most attractive target of investment.
Re:Elite Underproduction by kcb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:02PM (#29145183)
Aren't you implying that every country besides the US is currently having a painful experience?
Re:Elite Underproduction by ClumsyPilot on Sunday November 07, 2021 @10:04PM (#29145801)
Absolutely!

When UK Parliament wanted Zuk to answer some tough question about his company facilitating electoral fraud, he simply refused to show up. Even first world nations struggle in dealing with American corporation, which often act as if they are above the law.

God forbid you are a developing nation. British American Tabacco has taken poor developing nations to court for trying to ban children from smoking (!!) and got compenation and the law repealed

https://youtu.be/6UsHHOCH4q8

I am not even mentioning illegal stuff: bribes, threats, drone strikes, strong-arming, etc.

Even the EU was strong armed when it comes to GPS:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internation...

Those that think that American economic advantage was won in a 'fair game' are super naive

Re:Elite Underproduction by kcb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @10:31PM (#29145916)
And yet the US is not #1 in pretty much any quality of life metric. The point is there are plenty of nations with varying degrees of US influence that are far from miserable or painful places to live.
Re:Elite Underproduction by Jensson on Sunday November 07, 2021 @11:04PM (#29146044)
Living in USA will be more painful than it is now when USA no longer gets to import a lot of goods giving nothing in return. USA hasn't had a positive trade balance in half a century, people will want back their stuff at some point and that point wont be fun for the Americans.
Re:Elite Underproduction by throw6746 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @09:01PM (#29145496)
Not the OP but these countries do have to put up with America's influence.
Re:Elite Underproduction by rayiner on Monday November 08, 2021 @12:58AM (#29146454)
It’s going to be painful for Americans to adjust to being an only-ran. Consider how much of democratic politics right now is driven by the ability to run insane deficits to avoid taxing the upper middle class professional base. (Taxes on people making under $500k are still at Reagan levels and Biden promised not to raise them.) EU countries have to tax the middle class to balance their budgets, like proles.
Re:Elite Underproduction by slt2021 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @02:25PM (#29142579)
just look at the UK - lowering of living standards, wages, inflation across the board.

this is what's going to happen to the US, but on much larger scale and worse consequences

Re:Elite Underproduction by watwut on Sunday November 07, 2021 @02:11PM (#29142468)
Most college students go for practical and business majors. They literally go for what seems to promiss them money.

The *studies fields are rather small proportion of students. They also cluster mostly in top universities. It is just not true that they would dominated universities.

That one is just paranoia and blaming what you hate anyway.