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Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by adrianwaj on Sunday August 21, 2011 @04:20PM (#2910183)
That plane will render anti-ballistic missiles useless and make possible long-range targeted assassinations.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @04:41PM (#2910240)
ICBMs have been going roughly this speed for a while now, so anti-ballistic missiles either have been useless for a while, or will continue to work. The shuttle goes a good deal faster (mach 25) on re-entry. And as soon as you strip away the need to land and be re-used (the hallmarks of an "airplane"), your anti-super-fast-airplane missiles become much cheaper and faster than the plane, so even a small success rate serves as an effective deterrent in many cases.

This is a tech experiment. It may lead to advances in airplanes, but I highly doubt it is cost-effective compared to an equivalent missile that just slams home.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by iwwr on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:03PM (#2910277)
ICBMs can go fast, but they follow a predictable ballistic trajectory. They can also be intercepted by anti-missile missiles. You will need another scramjet to catch a scramjet while in the atmosphere.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by sehugg on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:51PM (#2910412)
Not necessarily .. reentry vehicles have been able to maneuver as far back as Gemini by rotating (they have a slight amount of lift) -- this works best in the upper atmosphere where small velocity changes can make large changes to your landing zone. Both the US and Russia designed maneuverable warheads to evade each other's ABM systems.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Sharlin on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:04PM (#2910442)
Your point stands, I'd like to clarify that the HTV-2 vehicle[1] is an unpowered glider, boosted to cruise velocity by a rocket stage, not a scramjet. Unfortunately, most of the popular news reporting has used the term "airplane" which usually refers to an aircraft capable of powered flight. Although the eventual goal of the FALCON project is to develop a scramjet-powered strike aircraft, the current record holder is still NASA's X-43[2] with a maximum attained speed of Mach 9.68.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Falcon_Project

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-43A

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by cleaver on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:08PM (#2910288)
ICBM's fly outside of the atmosphere and they don't turn... IE. they're ballistic. I could see that something designed to hit the predictable path of a ballistic missile at mach 20 would fail to hit an aircraft which can turn at mach 20. (How well this thing can actually turn is another question.)
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by jasonwatkinspdx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @07:29PM (#2910643)
This is incorrect. Modern ICMB designs include maneuverable reentry vehicles. Even modest accuracy in an ICBM requires at least a minimal amount of course correction in the terminal phase.

But apparently state of the art re-entry vehicles are capable of much more complex maneuvers including 180 degree turns (heading on ground, not the full 3d vector obviously).

The US has had this capability since a research project in the 1980s. Some form of it is deployed on Trident as well as the comparable UK and CH systems.

There is very little published on the topic, but if you start researching the AMaRV project you'll find some details and claims. Of course there's really no way for someone outside the defense community to confirm these claims, but I know of no physical reason why they couldn't be true.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by niels_olson on Sunday August 21, 2011 @08:37PM (#2910772)
see my comment below: radius of an 8g turn at mach 20 (330 m/s * 20) is 555 km. I choose 8 g because that's roughly what we think a sunburn (ss-n-22) can do, and that thing is built like brick shit-house.

now, to add to that: the radius of a 1 g turn at mach 20 is 4444 km. The radius of the earth is 6378 km. They've got to at least consider orbital mechanics just to hold altitude constant. Able to maneuver and highly maneuverable are two different things. The Titantic was able to maneuver. Just couldn't move fast enough.

Now, let's think about some other fun stuff, everybody join in.

Here's one: at mach 20, you need something along the lines of the shuttle's thermal protection system. We're talking plasma hot. Wrap this thing up in 3 inches of glass and I'll bet you've lost significant payload volume.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by adrianwaj on Monday August 22, 2011 @02:15AM (#2911546)
In terms of payload, and as someone asked below, "ordinance and yield" Would it actually need any? Smashing mach 20 into a target would yield tremendous kinetic force without explosives.

Same principle as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun where projectiles travel at 5,400 mph, and the gun can be situated on an aircraft carrier.

On that note, the article above mentions railguns as way to launch spacecraft into orbit: applicable for this Mach 20 plane.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:14PM (#2910308)
Granted, the 'ballistic' part does decide it. But what says ICBM tech can't be adapted to simply turn slightly while re-entering? It's not like this plane will be making hair-pin turns, I find it extremely hard to believe something with no need to fly back can't match it for maneuverability.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by hugh3 on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:23PM (#2910335)
But what says ICBM tech can't be adapted to simply turn slightly while re-entering?

Mostly the letter "B" for "ballistic".

You can turn while flying. You can't turn while falling. You can stick out a little control vane to try to change course a little bit, but at that sort of speed, in that sort of atmospheric density, and bearing in mind that during re-entry anything that is at all pointy will get burned off, I doubt you could do much at all.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:34PM (#2910365)
Hence adapted, and referring to the tech, not the object. Making a ballistic missile not-ballistic makes it into something else.

That this was a "plane" is inconsequential, and not even interesting, in terms of missiles - that they had at least minimal control at that speed is either a breakthrough, or duplication of existing techniques that can be applied to big-ass missiles (there, swap the B with "Big") more easily and more cheaply than to something designed to be re-used. Which, given the difficulty in adding controllable movement at such speeds to something way more complex than a one-use missile, implies to me that the techniques have existed for a while in cheaper forms, and this is just the first time they've been able to do it and (nearly) recover the device.

That's significant, but it's not a game-changer for missiles or making things go boom.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by arethuza on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:43PM (#2910551)
Maneuverable RVs have been flight tested - notably the US AMaRV.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by burgerbrain on Sunday August 21, 2011 @10:00PM (#2910967)
Of course you can turn while falling. Hell, you can turn without air. It's a rocket.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by hugh3 on Monday August 22, 2011 @08:31PM (#2914778)
Of course you can turn while falling. Hell, you can turn without air. It's a rocket

Ah, but then you're no longer falling.

You're not even "falling with style".

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by wisty on Monday August 22, 2011 @03:46AM (#2911739)
I think it's mostly there so the Air Force can pretend it will still be relevant in 20 years time. Pilots in planes will be replaced by UAV, or cruise missiles. But they want to cling to the romance of real humans in the sky.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by dantheman on Sunday August 21, 2011 @04:57PM (#2910266)
1. Assassinations are against US Law.

2. The US already has long-range assassination hit squads, e.g. Osama Bin Laden's Assassination

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by conover on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:10PM (#2910297)
Solely addressing number 2, I think the factor here is time. The strike window for this weapon as I understand it is 1 hour anywhere in the world. Navy SEAL operations on the order of killing Bin Laden have lead times measured in months. Even Tomahawk missiles take time to position (warships) and fire. When it absolutely, positively has to be destroyed or killed within a hour, Mach 20 is the only way to go.

Plus its non-ballistic flight path and high degree of maneuverability probably allows it to evade most anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic missile defenses.

Scary stuff.

Edit: Grammar and spelling.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by niels_olson on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:38PM (#2910374)
"highly maneuverable" is an odd term here. What's the radius of an 8 g turn at mach 20? 555 km. The diameter is slightly smaller than the N-S length of California.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by demallien on Monday August 22, 2011 @03:48AM (#2911742)
Sure, but by the same reasoning, you don't need to change your heading by more than a fraction of a degree before the interceptor has to massively change it's intercept trajectory. A scramjet powered missile randomly making slight adjustments around the desired trajectory would make it extremely difficult to intercept.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by true_religion on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:11PM (#2910299)
I wasn't aware that it was a law. I thought it was merely a prohibition put into place by an Executive Order signed by President Ford.

In either case, it seems moot in today's day and age. What's the difference between firing a missile at enemy headquarters with the intention of killing the general and senior staff, and an assassination?

It seems today that 'assassination' is simply pursuing the usual methods of war against a specific target.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by arethuza on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:56PM (#2910579)
In Robert Baer's book "See No Evil" he describes being questioned by the FBI while working for the CIA for allegedly trying to organize an assassination of Saddam Hussein.

There were no basis for the accusations but he understandably pretty unhappy as the penalties for being found guilty could be pretty severe.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:15PM (#2910311)
They're against the law if they're caught. It implies nothing about the existence of successful stealth-assassinations.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by pohl on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:23PM (#2910334)
I'm pretty sure speeding is against the law even when there are no cops around.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:34PM (#2910367)
This means nobody does it?
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by troutwine on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:50PM (#2910409)
Not at all. An unpunished illegal actions is still illegal; you are not _punished_ if you are not caught violating the law. Your phrasing is more pithy, of course.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Cushman on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:51PM (#2910413)
I don't see anyone else around with a Mach 20 assassination missile. Call it circumstantial evidence if you like...
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:40PM (#2910547)
cruise missiles are often better for assassinations anyway. They are stealthy, cheap, and extremely accurate - a mach-20 super-hot re-entering slug of metal that had to be launched into space isn't really any of those.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Steko on Sunday August 21, 2011 @08:33PM (#2910759)
I'll put my money on tiny UAV's as the future of assassinations. They're small now and I'd guess in 10 years they'll have really small ones, I mean fly in like a mosquito and blow up John Connor's head before he even sees it small. Short range but all that means if you need another vehicle to get them close, yeah prolly a cruise missile.
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Eliezer on Monday August 22, 2011 @12:24AM (#2911297)
Congratulations, you just wrote "Terminator 2 and the Methods of Rationality".
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Cushman on Monday August 22, 2011 @01:04AM (#2911385)
Why can't we have nice things and the Methods of Rationality?
Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Cushman on Monday August 22, 2011 @12:10AM (#2911263)
Dear god that's terrifying.

You hear the scream of a missile overhead. It passes. Sometime later you will die.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Groxx on Monday August 22, 2011 @01:22AM (#2911417)
prefixed by "zzzzZZZZZZZZZ                  "

That's a horrible way to go.

Re:Superfast military plane hit Mach 20 before crash by Eliezer on Monday August 22, 2011 @03:42AM (#2911731)
I know an old lady who swallowed a fly.

I don't know why she swallowed a fly.

I guess she'll die...