News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by gwern on Sunday August 21, 2011 @10:32AM (#2909253)
> The combination of numerous dialects and a formal/informal continuum is pretty much unique to Arabic and gives rise to fascinating situations watching Arabs calibrate their lanugage based on the situation and the linguistic background of their interlocutor.

Not Chinese?

(Also, #9 hardly seems like an item to include in an article explaining 'Why Arabic is Terrific'. 'Terrifying', perhaps.)

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by mechanical_fish on Sunday August 21, 2011 @10:41AM (#2909267)
One of the charms of HN is that it attracts posts from people for whom terrific and mindbending to the point of perversity are not necessarily opposites.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by Jun8 on Sunday August 21, 2011 @10:37AM (#2909259)
The concept of dialect is quite vague and is generally determined politically. Some like the Chinese "dialects" are generally mutually unintelligible and are actually different languages. On the other end of the spectrum, one may consider Norwegian/Swedish/Danish, which may be treated as dialects of teh same language practically bur are considered separate languages (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1120647).
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by just_the_tip on Sunday August 21, 2011 @02:40PM (#2909859)
"A language is a dialect with an army and navy"
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by vbtemp on Sunday August 21, 2011 @02:49PM (#2909877)
+ a million if I could. One of my favorite quotes. It's from Max Weinreich, right? "A sprakh iz a dialekt mit an Armee un Flot"
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by hasenj on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:20PM (#2910480)
Except that for Arabic "dialects", the presence of Armies and Navies hasn't turned any of these dialects to a language.

On the other hands, Kurds have their language(s?) despite not having an army or a navy.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by geon on Sunday August 21, 2011 @03:31PM (#2910005)
Treating it as the same language would be a stretch.

As a Swede, especially spoken Danish is completely unitelligible.

Having worked with Norwegians the last few years, I have learned to understand spoken Norwegian most of the time. There is however a lot of variation i dialects, making some of them easy to umderstand, while others are almost as bad as Danes.

In adition to dialects, there are enough unique words and idioms in each language to make especially written norwegian cryptic.

There are also a lot of gotchas where the same words have different meaning. A fun example is the expression "rar tös" meaning "sweet little girl" in Swedish, but "weird slut" in Norwegian.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by joelhaasnoot on Sunday August 21, 2011 @03:41PM (#2910042)
Having lived abroad for a large portion of my life: I've seen lots of Scandinavians be able to communicate in some combination of their languages, be it Danes/Norwegians and Norwegians/Swedes. Fins got by by all knowing Swedish, so they all got by mostly in the middle... Interesting to always see them find a middle ground, where us Dutch people always switch to English, the minute someone doesn't know Dutch.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by pavel_lishin on Tuesday August 23, 2011 @01:00AM (#2915405)
Sounds like a great idea for a band name.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idlewords on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:43PM (#2909692)
There are a couple of differences with Chinese:

1. Lots of people speak Mandarin at home. No one speaks MSA at home except us poor language students.

2. The set of languages binned under 'Chinese' is much more diverse than the Arabic dialect continuum.

3. The writing system is shared between several languages. You can write Cantonese (kind of) in hanzi and write notes that Mandarin speakers can read even though the languages are totally mutually unintelligble.

4. There is no dominant dialect of Arabic, like there is a dominant variety of Chinese. Instead every dialect shares the same formal register (MSA) which is taught in school like a foreign language.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idiopathic on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:34PM (#2910526)
I wanted to add my opinion as an Arab (from Bahrain), which is nowhere as scholarly as yours (I am so in awe of your linguistic nerdiness, thanks for such a lovely article).

Egyptian Arabic is dominant in a similar way to American English, i.e. Egypt had the largest movie industry and population, and everyone else could understand Egyptians while Egyptians had no need to understand other dialects.

What is interesting is the impact of satellite television. These new stations have global audiences and content that Arabs want to watch as opposed to their national censored channels. But their solution to pan-Arab broadcasting is classical Arabic, not Egyptian Arabic, and so there is a resurgence of the use of classical Arabic outside of courts and classrooms.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by furyg3 on Monday August 22, 2011 @04:39AM (#2911824)
So would your advice to someone wishing to learn Arabic (for the purposes of understanding / being understood by as wide of an area as possible) to learn Egyptian Arabic or to learn classical Arabic?
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idiopathic on Tuesday August 23, 2011 @02:29AM (#2915602)
Because of satellite television, I would say classical - everyone will understand you, and although you will sound formal in your speech, you will also be able to read and write.

However, you will have difficulty understanding the dialect of the person you are speaking to. And if you have a dialect that you should understand, I would say it should be Gulf Arabic (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, UAE and of course my own Bahrain).

Economic (thriving free markets, not just oil-funded governments) and military activity in the Arab world is concentrated in the gulf, so unless you are trying to be a tourist (Egypt), the real value is in Gulf Arabic. Note that most Arabic teachers are Egyptian or from the Levant, and will try and persuade you otherwise ;)

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by abhaga on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:50PM (#2909713)
Not at all unique to Arabic. The Indo-Gangatic plain is a big continuum of people speaking various dialects of Hindi. We even have a saying: Water changes every kos (~2 miles) and language changes every 4 kos (~ 8 miles).
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by cwp on Sunday August 21, 2011 @11:52AM (#2909423)
Personally, I'd go with 6 & 7 as reasons Arabic is terrifying.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by deno on Sunday August 21, 2011 @12:07PM (#2909460)
“The books, she is green” is not very unique to Arabic actually. It's also how you'd say it in Polish, for example. Most languages, that have feminine and masculine forms (unlike English), have some arbitrary rules as to what form to assign for different material objects.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idlewords on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:20PM (#2909637)
You've misunderstood this part. The unusual behavior is not having grammatical gender, but treating all non-human plurals as feminine singular.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by ithkuil on Sunday August 21, 2011 @05:37PM (#2910372)
Not sure if this applies to Arabic, but sometimes this happens when there is a old case which got lost and which had the same suffix as feminine singular. Usually that's genitive. For example Croatian (I'm a native speaker) uses genitive plural agreement for number >=5.

Feminine genitive plural happens to have the same suffix as feminine singular, and it could be possible to envision an future evolution of the language where the genitive is lost, while the number agreement rule could be preserve. So it's possible that grammars of this future language would state that feminine plural agreement for numbers >=5 you have to use the feminine singular.

Btw, I once read a very nice title of a german language book:

"Der Dativ is dem Genitiv sein Tot"

literaly, "the dative is [to] the genitive its death"

Which denotes the fact that in modern German the genitive case is being lost in faviour of constructs based on dative (the correct form would be "Der Dativ ist der Tod des Genitivs", i.e. "the dative is the death of the genitive")

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Dativ_ist_dem_Genitiv_sein_...)

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by deno on Sunday August 21, 2011 @03:44PM (#2910061)
Hmm, yes; it seems I did. I hope that my basic premise holds true though — in that this doesn't make Arabic inherently sexist.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by skoob on Sunday August 21, 2011 @12:39PM (#2909524)
I think the point here was more about how Arabic treats groups of non-human objects as feminin singular. I assume that in Polish you would use a plural form of "green" when talking about multiple books and you would only use the feminine form if "book" is a feminine word.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idlewords on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:21PM (#2909639)
That's right. Polish adjectives agree in number, gender and case with the nouns they modify.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by guard-of-terra on Sunday August 21, 2011 @12:47PM (#2909548)
Maybe the underlying idea is that "a group of something is green", and a group is singular and is feminine (at least in Russian ^^)
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idlewords on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:47PM (#2909703)
Nope :-)
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by riffraff on Sunday August 21, 2011 @12:22PM (#2909489)
obligatory noticeable case: swahili (one of the widely studied non-indo european languages) comes with _18_ noun classes.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by gaustin on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:07PM (#2909609)
How does that compare to the other languages in the Bantu family? Long ago I studied Ichibemba, and think it had something like 18 noun classes, too.

IIRC, Finnish has something like 28 noun cases. That is intimidating.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by lkozma on Sunday August 21, 2011 @02:39PM (#2909856)
"IIRC, Finnish has something like 28 noun cases. That is intimidating"

Finnish (and other agglutinative languages) use suffixes to express many concepts that in English are expressed with prepositions: imagine if instead of "in my room" you would have to say "room-my-in" and you would call this the noun case of "containment" or something similar, the number of cases would go up pretty quickly.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by zeemonkee on Sunday August 21, 2011 @02:43PM (#2909866)
> IIRC, Finnish has something like 28 noun cases. That is intimidating.

It's not actually that complicated, most are simple suffixes - so for example, instead of on the table in Finnish you say table-on (pöydällä). Once you learn the rules of vowel harmony and consonant mutation it's a pretty regular, straightforward language.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by riffraff on Sunday August 21, 2011 @03:01PM (#2909913)
My knowledge of bantu languages is only what I read on wikipedia, so I am not qualified to answer, but it seems they orbitate around 20 :)

As for cases: I am learning hungarian which is related to finnish and also has more than 20 cases.

The problem, in my personal experience, is that learning such an agglutinative language is slightly harder than others because when you are learning you don't know all the suffixes and at the same time you don't even know enough vocabulary to understand what's what. Especially once you consider that suffixes stack up.

I see something like "ccddee" and it's hard to understand where I should break up the thing (<ccd,dee>, <cc,dd,ee>, <cc,dde,e> etc). YMMV :)

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by peterbotond on Sunday August 21, 2011 @08:30PM (#2910756)
as a native hungarian speaker, let me wish you fun and many discoveries while learning this enormous grammer.

hungarian is not related to finnish, rather to turkic languages. i am a native hungarian speaker, and i know hungarian grammar is logically closer to turkish than to finnish. the story how they became related is purely political, and references easily found on this subject and i do not intend to get into. in hungarian literature class we studied finnish words that were similar, grammer, and a few poems.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by adamzochowski on Monday August 22, 2011 @09:34AM (#2912371)
> hungarian is not related to finnish

"" The Uralic languages ( /jʊˈrælɨk/) (sometimes referred to as Uralian languages) constitute a language family of some three dozen languages spoken by approximately 25 million people. The healthiest Uralic languages in terms of the number of native speakers are Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Mari and Udmurt. ""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by peterbotond on Monday August 22, 2011 @12:52PM (#2913084)
the referenced wiki article also mentions another point of view. the referenced article also does not mention the significant number of hungarian speakers in Canada.

i will not comment any further on this thread. my view is based on extensive research of turkish, finnish, hungarian, english, german, spanish, and russian grammers.

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by joelhaasnoot on Sunday August 21, 2011 @03:44PM (#2910067)
Swahili is supposedly quite easy compared to Arabic or Amharic (also a Semitic language like Arabic).
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by Abdul321 on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:26PM (#2909651)
As far as I know, in Arabic, it should say "The books are green". "Green" has the same form and pronunciation that singular feminine has. However, green is used as an adjective here for the group of "Books", not "she is".
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by idlewords on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:46PM (#2909700)
A literal version:

الكتب books(definite) حضراء green(feminine singular indefinite)

Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by ctrager on Sunday August 21, 2011 @06:38PM (#2910539)
A de facto rule of spoken English: "Everyone should floss their teeth" - Singular nouns of indeterminate gender take plural, and therefore genderless, possessives.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by adnanymously on Sunday August 21, 2011 @11:24AM (#2909362)
dates in Arabic are not read right to left as the author suggested. They are written and read left to right.
Re:Why Arabic is Terrific by gms on Sunday August 21, 2011 @11:30AM (#2909370)
The numbers are written left to right, but dates are indeed right to left.