12 references to people in one statement, 5 referring to the post author, 1 reference to social fraternity membership, 1 statement of authority.

I'm not sure if there is a common name for this particular source of discomfort, but that quote definitely contains a lot of it. I'm a historical contributor to the Python source repository, but something about the social structure of the project has changed significantly in recent years that would dissuade me from submitting changes in future. The focus in the statement above no longer feels like it is on the actual productive output of the project itself, and in previous years it wasn't like that, nor needed to be like that.

Reminds me of something like the minutes of a professional schmoozer's business lunch, rather than a technical meeting, or something like that. If you have ever seen a stray engineer at an event like this (or had the misfortune of being that engineer), this feeling probably captures the problem well. Whatever it is, I'd love to see less of it.

> The focus in the statement above no longer feels like it is on the actual productive output of the project itself, and in previous years it wasn't like that, nor needed to be like that.

I don’t believe you. Python was never like this in the past, and has a long history of rejecting objectively good performance enhancements because the BDFL and friends wanted the implementation to remain a simple teaching example for students.

I have been a member of the Python community since 2002 and followed the lists for just as long, not least because of the quality of technical discussion up until the start of the 3.x saga.

I don't think anyone would deny Python has changed since then, I think most notably in the years following the release of Django, Python becoming a go-to web language, and the size of the community exploding.

Without knowing anything about how python is being developed, but I know that the python 2 -> python 3 transition was nearly fatal. And from other projects I know that the easiest way to prevent such events is that you put people in charge. Such a fundamental change as getting rid of the GIL may well trigger a similar situation if not done well (and maybe even if done well). It is the choice to manage the current limited status quo vs risking the future of the project on a bet that an improvement can be made without bifurcating the community again.

The people have put themselves in charge. Some of them haven't even written a single large C extension, so how will they even judge the pain?

They are good at self-promotion and corporate backed. Real work in the Python world is done by the quieter types who don't strive to "be in charge".

I find it harsh to suggest that the names in that statement didn't do real work. They've been at it for decades. And the newcommer report is outstanding in quality.

I'm rather interested in why you feel that way however. Do you think your work, or the work of some specific project/person hasn't received the recognition it deserves ? Or that the attention of the community diverted from important work toward subjects that are more eye catching ?

> 1 reference to social fraternity membership

I'm struggling to find that in the quote. What is the fraternity in question?

"become a core developer" I assume... as if somehow non-core developers are inferior and not-part-of-the-club.

You are wrongly assuming that the core developers are a club that is putting up barriers in order to stay exclusive.

Much to the opposite, just like many other big and important open source projects, they are actively trying to recruit, mentor and urge people to come as far "in" as possible. It takes a lot of work and dedication to get acquainted with a code base.

Core developer means that you work on the core, not that you are a person the “python community” can't do without. If one is going to replace the GIL, a very core feature, then it makes sense to make that person a core member of the python squad.

Perhaps, but it is not a fraternity. There is, as far as I can tell, non-males in the group.

I think you’re thinking of a college frat. Fraternities in this sense are not restricted to men.

I'm not an American and so I have no sense of college frats. I'm thinking of Fraternal Orders which are very explicitly male-only organisations. The word fraternity literally means "brotherhood".

The choice of the word "fraternity" by the poster above was deliberate and seems to be being used to imply a more severe exclusion of others.

I've understood it the same way. We have fraternities and sororities. A gender-neutral term would be a social club.

However, I've just looked it up in Merriam Webster, and it looks like this term can include female members, too, even thought the word and the related adjective have strong masculine associations. Wikipedia basically says the same, "Although membership in fraternities was and mostly still is limited to men, ever since the development of orders of Catholic sisters and nuns in the Middle Ages and henceforth, this is not always the case. There are mixed male and female orders, as well as wholly female religious orders and societies, some of which are known as sororities in North America."

okay, then you’re thinking of Fraternal Orders, which is also something different. I’m aware of what “fraternity” means etymologically, but I’m sure you’re aware that etymology is separate from meaning.

We don't even have to argue anyway. From a dictionary:

> [treated as singular or plural] a group of people sharing a common profession or interests: e.g. “members of the hunting fraternity”.

Frankly it’s very easy to google.

This is python, not Microsoft we are talking about

Contributors can be extinguished after they have done their duty. One of the most famous contributors ever spoke about "minibosses" the last time he was seen dealing with the Python core bureaucrats.

The situation is even worse now.

Can you give us more details about this ? Do you have a particular story in mind ? It seems a lot of fresh blood is comming to the python project recently, so I'm interested in what you have to say.

But why are you using a throwaway account ? And that you that have been answering the other comments with also newly created accounts ?

I can share the sentiment that PSF and the core team has become something like “old boys club”, and no, new core developers didn’t change this ambience you get when you read their forums/mailing lists and twitters (better avoid twitters though).

I don’t have anything about a community being an old boys’ club (would be nice to be in one some day, I reckon it’s what older people’s equivalent of a “safe space” is), it’s that they try hard to pretend they are something else that irks me.

But for the life of me I couldn’t find “python” and “minibosses” mentioned in the same document on the internet, except for an integration testing package and a computer game. So I think the story alluded to is bogus.

There’s a minuscule likelihood of it all being a twitter drama with key characters then nuking their tweets or deleting their accounts, but if it was of any significance some blog would have echoed it.

The only reference I can find to "minibosses" is this ancient python-dev thread here (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/01571...)

> I'd prefer if you didn't feel the need to play miniboss on the Python project

Disclosure: I am a current core dev