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Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by smoldesu on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:10PM (#28910964)
I expect to be surrounded by pitchforks and torches for saying this, but I genuinely believe that Linux is the true winner of today's presentation.

The last few months have been watershed times for both Apple and Microsoft. Starting with Apple, their developer relations are starting to crumble in a major way. Not only have developers stood up against their highway robbery, but other companies like Microsoft have one-upped them just for the hell of it. Today's presentation was almost completely devoid of any software discussion, which is really what puts the nail in the coffin for me. A 5nm laptop chip will always be more powerful than the 14nm one I've got, but at least my chip runs the software I want. Without a commitment to replacing 32-bit libraries, updating their coreutils or making a package manager developers actually want to use, I think Apple's message is clear: We're pivoting away from the 'Pro' market and heading straight into 'Prosumer'. To their credit, it seems like they've made a fine prosumer laptop.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has usurped their enthusiast community with Windows 11. The strict CPU requirement in particular was a bad move on their behalf, and it's going to leave a lot of their install base out in the cold. While I don't expect a whole lot of consumers to pivot to Linux, I can imagine a lot of developers making the switch. Many devs already use WSL, so they're pretty familiar with Unix systems as-is. The Windows-to-Linux onboarding experience is getting better and better as Wine is continuing to close the gap in compatibility. Especially for the gamer/enthusiast market Microsoft traditionally caters to, the value proposition of using Windows is diminishing by the day. Windows 11 does nothing to change that, and actively impedes your workflow if you're on a Ryzen CPU.

I think for a lot of people's workflow, Linux will be the only thing left that "just works" in a few years time.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by jmull on Monday October 18, 2021 @06:22PM (#28912561)
This is a pretty bad take.

I don’t see anything particularly wrong with Apple’s developer relations. You certainly might hope they would give us more than they do, but you always hope for that. Bottom line is, Apple gives us what we really need — a market.

Today’s presentation was almost devoid of discussions of software… because it was about hardware. It’s not like WWDC doesn’t exist. You can hear about Apple’s software as much as you would care to.

“Apple doesn’t care about pros anymore” is a perpetual refrain, but it seems to go through phases of being more true and less true (there are many kinds of pros, so it’s never going to be all true or all false.) We’re in a middle state at the moment, IMO, mainly due to the uncertainly about what the higher end pro Apple silicon story will be. Still, these current laptops look awfully good for many “pros”.

Linux has a lot of nice points and some pretty good distos that are improving all the time, but that’s not near enough to displace Windows or MacOS.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by packetlost on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:36PM (#28911349)
I use Linux daily. "Just works" is a stretch as soon as you throw any GUI + desktop environment into the equation. Even more hairy if you add an nvidia GPU in.

The average consumer is more likely to switch to ChromeOS (which I guess is Linux underneath, for now) than to any Linux distro.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by JohnTHaller on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:09PM (#28911795)
> Even more hairy if you add an nvidia GPU in.

You're also describing Mac with that one. But worse.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:45PM (#28913687)
Macs haven't had nvidia GPUs for a while now, so not surprising they're unsupported.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by JohnTHaller on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:21PM (#28920728)
Unsupported by Apple is one thing. Not allowing Nvidia to release a driver for MacOS 10.14 and later is another thing.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @11:20PM (#28926377)
Apple is actively preventing them, or Nvidia can't be bothered? Hadn't heard the former before.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by JohnTHaller on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:17AM (#28927016)
"Beginning in macOS 10.14.5, software signed with a new Developer ID certificate and all new or updated kernel extensions must be notarized to run. Beginning in macOS 10.15, all software built after June 1, 2019, and distributed with Developer ID must be notarized." - https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizin...

You can't release a driver for Mac without Apple's permission. Apple won't allow Nvidia to release drivers for newer cards. Nvidia has stated this on multiple occasions.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kube-system on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:03AM (#28915032)
I tried to install Ubuntu on an older desktop this past weekend, because that's a solid choice to revive any aging system, right? ... nope, it wouldn't boot because Canonical decided to drop BIOS boot support on their installers.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by zekica on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @02:24AM (#28915365)
This is not true. Ubuntu supports BIOS boot without any issues. I booted 21.10 yesterday on a Core i5-540M and it worked without any issues.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by kube-system on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @09:53AM (#28918061)
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by pram on Monday October 18, 2021 @05:45PM (#28912210)
"Today's presentation was almost completely devoid of any software discussion, which is really what puts the nail in the coffin for me."

Literally what? This isn't WWDC. It was an event for presenting new hardware. There was zero chance of it being software or (especially) developer focused.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:40PM (#28913649)
Though ironically the macOS Monterrey RC actually came out the same day as this event.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by krrrh on Monday October 18, 2021 @11:36PM (#28914592)
It’s not ironic, new releases of MacOS always coincide with the release of new hardware.

And it always follows the announcement of the release at WWDC around July.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by fastball on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @12:53AM (#28914991)
I don't mean ironic from Apple's perspective, I mean ironic given the comment complaining about "only new hardware".
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by Joeri on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:38PM (#28911377)
I don't know if you've been following marcan & co on their work on bringing linux to M1 macs, but it's moving along nicely. Pretty soon there will be an interesting conundrum for believers in open systems: buy high performance mac hardware but run an open OS on it, or take the high road and buy a "worse" laptop from a more open vendor.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by TimTheTinker on Monday October 18, 2021 @08:54PM (#28913731)
One could view Marcan's work on Asahi Linux as "making M1 open".

Going out on a limb here, but as a firm believer in open systems I think it's fine to buy an M1 Mac to the extent it's guaranteed to run Linux (or OpenBSD, or whatever) without any problems.

System that can't do that are the ones to really avoid.

Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by thinkloop on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @01:28AM (#28915151)
And yet I still have to hard reboot after closing the lid on a fresh ubuntu install on a 7 year-old lenovo in 2021.
Re:MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch by wlll on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @04:40AM (#28916062)
Don’t worry, 2022 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!