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Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by tptacek on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @05:54PM (#28858167)
I don't know anything about Apple's bug bounty program except that there's a prevailing attitude that it is not the well-oiled machine that Google's bug bounty program is perceived to be, and I'm not super interested in making a case for Apple here. But because this is a recurring theme in every discussion about every bug bounty run by anyone:

* There are valid reasons that bugs can take longer to fix than you'd expect; the most notable of them is when the bug you found is actually systemic, or has a deep root cause, and the real fix for the vulnerability is more complicated than the surface bug. Without a hard timeline, some shops will work to get the root cause fixed on some bugs even at the cost of an increased timeline, because the patch for the surface bug reveals the pattern and amplifies risk to customers.

* As a reporter, you can take some measure of control over the process back by providing a fixed timeline (like the P0 90 days). There's no negotiation needed; you give the vendor time to fix and they either do or don't, but either way you're going public. That is a valid way to go about things, but may cost you the bounty.

* These things are bug-dependent, and the process that runs for a zero-interaction RCE won't be the same as the process that runs for a bug that requires a malicious app store app and only gives access to the contact database.

* Message boards tend to expect that big vendors can just shell out for the bounty as a show of good faith. It's easy to see why they believe that. It makes sense. But it also creates broken incentives. The limiting reagent on bugs isn't bounty dollars (these are indeed barely even rounding errors to major vendors), but rather programmer time. If you pay out for weak, stuck-in-process bugs, you create incentives that redirect programmer time to those weak bugs and away from more significant bugs; as angry as you can reasonably be about a malicious app being able to snarf your contacts, if you're rational, you're a lot more concerned about memory corruption flaws, which is what you really want people spending their time on.

Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by saagarjha on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:24AM (#28861453)
> If you pay out for weak, stuck-in-process bugs, you create incentives that redirect programmer time to those weak bugs and away from more significant bugs; as angry as you can reasonably be about a malicious app being able to snarf your contacts, if you're rational, you're a lot more concerned about memory corruption flaws, which is what you really want people spending their time on.

I don't understand how this isn't already reflected in bug bounty pricing tiers? Like, if I access your contacts, I get $x, but if I can access all your photos, I get $xx. As a user, I couldn't care less for how my data got accessed, whether it's a logic bug or memory corruption…

Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by tptacek on Thursday October 14, 2021 @01:10PM (#28867014)
The point is that memory corruption vulnerabilities are complete device takeovers, not that they have extra aesthetic value.
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by spopejoy on Saturday October 16, 2021 @02:32PM (#28890205)
Right, and responder is saying in a competition for resources, pay less for non-mem corruption bugs, which should mean they aren't as hard to verify.

Is your point that all bugs soak up time to fix? If so pay the bounty and add it to the backlog. Or is it too much time to verify? That seems to be something you can kick back to the reporter.

Apologetics for a bug bounty program dragging their feet on a payout because "it's not a mem corruption bug" alone is unconvincing.

Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by saagarjha on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:18PM (#28869457)
Well, that circles back around to my point: if Apple wants people to submit more complete device takeovers, they should pay more for them (and they do, or at least they claim they do).
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by tptacek on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:26PM (#28869562)
This bug was not a complete takeover, or anything even close to one.
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by saagarjha on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:19PM (#28870285)
Well, yes, that's why Apple won't pay a million dollars for it. But there are tiers lower than that ("Unauthorized access to sensitive data from a user-installed app") which do cover the kind of bug described here.
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by tptacek on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:35PM (#28870482)
You've lost me. What does this have to do with the point I made about which bugs we want security developers at Apple spending their time on? You seem to be making my point for me.
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by saagarjha on Thursday October 14, 2021 @07:28PM (#28871619)
The whole point of the bug bounty program is that anything that qualifies for it is something that Apple considers to be important enough to pay out money for, because they (ostensibly) want people to report these to them. I understand if they are overloaded with "this function leaks the country of the device" bug reports but the ones that they actually include in the bug bounty program are those that have the potential to significantly damage their stated goals around security, so it's kind of the point that they review all of them.

If Apple wants to nudge people towards submitting more serious bugs, they can pay more so people are incentivized to work towards those rather than mucking around in gamed. But, they don't really get to say "we didn't really have time to get around to this Contacts bug, sorry": people expect them to have it fixed. That's the whole reason Apple offers a bounty at all: so that researchers tell them about it early so they can fix it.

Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by tptacek on Thursday October 14, 2021 @07:45PM (#28871825)
I think there might be someone else on this thread you mean to direct this to, because it's not responsive to anything I'm saying.
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by nopcode on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @07:21PM (#28858760)
> * These things are bug-dependent, and the process that runs for a zero-interaction RCE won't be the same as the process that runs for a bug that requires a malicious app store app and only gives access to the contact database.

It would be interesting to understand at what point this becomes a GDPR issue, and if the GDPR legislation can be used to pressure companies in expediting this process.

Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by tptacek on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @07:36PM (#28858849)
There's a "be careful what you wish for" argument here, because my understanding is that the FAANG vendors are snapping up security people just as fast as they possibly can, and, again, ceteris paribus you'd rather have those people working on the actual most serious vulnerabilities rather than the ones causing the noisiest bounty drama. But you could reasonably go either way on this I guess.
Re:Apple silently fixes iOS zero-day, asks bug reporter to k... by jacquesm on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:44AM (#28861222)
The degree of damage done by particular vulnerabilities is different from person to person. For one individual losing their contact database to some un-identified third party might be a 'meh' event, for another it could be a disaster.