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Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @03:38PM (#28856557)
- Brian's comments about Airbnb's approach to performance marketing are used to imply that Airbnb's lessons apply to other businesses. Very few businesses - especially those that start from small numbers and need to grow them - have 90% of their traffic mix come from repeat customers. Using Brian's comments helps fuel the narrative that brand marketing is a better investment than performance marketing, which is correct in some cases (Nike, Airbnb), and not in others (most startups). Also, as another member pointed out, Airbnb's performance marketing budget is still well over $200M/year, which no responsible/public company would spend if it wasn't returning a great ROAS. Finally, Airbnb is known for all sorts of marketing shenanigans in their early days, and they certainly can't take the credit for a pure brand play.

- Calling performance marketing platforms a scam (repeatedly, both in the title and in the narrative) doesn't explain how those same performance marketing platforms are carrying the majority of traffic acquisition in most of the B2C companies that went public this year (and practically all of the DTC ones). Calling into question the accuracy of measurement is one thing. Calling it a scam is wrong and designed to rank on HN rather than to be reflective of the true value of those platforms.

- As I pointed out in my original post, all you have to do is use incrementality studies and 98% of the criticism instantly goes away. Rand implies that you have to do your own studies (by eg, following Avinash Kaushik's methodology) which is 100% wrong - Facebook will do them for you if you reach a certain spend limit, or 3rd parties will as well with no spend limits. Also, from experience, this really becomes an issue once you spend meaningful amounts on two platforms at the same time. His rant on this subject has an iota of truth and a whole lot of sensationalism mixed together, and overall leads to wrong conslusions.

- He conflates "paid search" with "all performance marketing platforms", including "paid social." It would have been helpful to point out that the challenges with branded terms are entirely isolated to paid search and have nothing to do with paid social.

- My favorite sensationalist tactic: frame a strong accusation as a question. This way you get the clicks, but you can still cover your ass by linking to resources that with enough research would allow the reader to answer the question with a "No." But in lieu of that research, the implication is that the answer is a "Yes." You'll see this tactic used by less reputative media sources, and I was disappointed to see Rand do the same.

I could go on but hopefully this will suffice.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by inthewoods on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @06:54PM (#28858585)
"Also, as another member pointed out, Airbnb's performance marketing budget is still well over $200M/year, which no responsible/public company would spend if it wasn't returning a great ROAS. Finally, Airbnb is known for all sorts of marketing shenanigans in their early days, and they certainly can't take the credit for a pure brand play."

My experience is exactly the opposite. The larger the budget, the less real hard analysis is done. This is especially true with the rise of attribution modeling which allows marketers to essentially motion blur the data.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:24AM (#28860505)
The larger the budget, the more sophisticated the teams and the methodology. Also, more players eager to accuse marketing of poor performance (eg: sales and revenue teams). Not sure where you made that experience, but that marketing team would get fired within a quarter at any large scale company I am familiar with. Large companies are inefficient in many ways, but not in what pays the bills.
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by inthewoods on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:09AM (#28861991)
Many of the large companies will say "we have a complex sales cycle" (and they often do) and leverage multi-touch attribution models which removes the direct ROI calculation.
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by lostinquebec on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @04:17PM (#28857139)
Your first point is very hopeful, but not what I've experienced. The bigger the company, the more slack for bad decisions.

Your other points I think relate to scale. No advice can be universal, and if you read the article as absolutist, your take makes sense. If you read it as "hey, your mix is likely wrong", a lot of the criticism fades.

I think we've lost a bit of creativity in marketing. The Lego movie example is a really good one. I think it is probably good this happened, as a lot of creativity was performative (how do I win an ad award/impress my peers) and not about increasing sales, but we've perhaps shifted the balance too far, and there is likely some areas with good ROS that are now better bets.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @04:32PM (#28857312)
Scale brings both, headwinds and tailwinds. The outcome often hinges on how the balance of those two forces plays out.

Ecommerce example: every year the CPMs go up and your paid margin goes down. But every year you have a larger email list, so the balance of paid to unpaid shifts.

General example: every year you get more of the late-stage employees who care less and less about your company. But every year you can afford to pay for more layers of management, which will keep an eye on the underperformers.

This list goes on and on... The headwinds are driven by external forces, whereas the tailwinds end up working out based on your specific execution of the opportunities that present themselves to you. This is where an experienced operational team can make a huge difference.

> I think we've lost a bit of creativity in marketing.

You absolutely cannot rely on performance marketing forever. It's a shot in the arm until you have reached enough [fill in whatever you wnat] so that you can leverage that momentum to reach the escape velocity. So it's not good forever, but it's a great catalyst.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by NumberCruncher on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @04:32PM (#28857305)
> Rand implies that you have to do your own studies [...] which is 100% wrong - Facebook will do them for you

So FB, who earns on my spending, offers me to measure for me whether my spending makes sense for me. Why would FB ever tell me to spend less? Don't they like money?

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:44AM (#28862169)
> Why would FB ever tell me to spend less?

There's literally a team at Facebook (Marketing Science), part of who's job is to tell advertisers what actually works and often, this can lead to them telling advertisers to spend less.

And this is an incredibly smart business strategy in that FB know (from experiments et al) that their platform works, and if they can show incrementality, then advertisers will invest more in the platform.

In game theory terms, it's a good strategy for a repeated game, which advertising definitely is.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @04:35PM (#28857339)
It's fair to question credibility, but you have to realize that their results can be compared against 3rd parties, and it would lead to a lot of reputational damage (and also legal risk) to systematically defraud your advertisers. All it takes is one smart team to out the entire enterprise.
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by stoicking on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @06:04PM (#28858233)
The causal incrementality of ad spend is rarely negative. You expect to see decreasing returns with additional ad spend. For each dollar in ad spend, one advertiser might want to see $3 in revenue, another $5. Incrementality studies then allow advertisers to tune spend to their operating points.

Facebook does like money. Do you think lying to the biggest advertisers in the world is the best long-term strategy, or do you think instead it might be better to report out the most accurate results possible?

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by lmm on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @10:45PM (#28859989)
Facebook has a history of screwing advertisers ("want your page to show up in people's feeds? Get more follows, here's how to buy ads targeting that", then one year later "we've decided to downgrade pages in people's feeds"...), bankers (their IPO pricing), and essentially everyone they have a business relationship with. I'd expect them to stretch the truth as far as they can get away with.
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by Androider on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @07:17PM (#28858731)
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by dsizzle on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @05:26PM (#28857920)
To your point that AirBnB's and other global brands don't extend to most businesses, Facebook's recent outage provided such an experiment and indeed a lot of small businesses saw massive effects https://mashable.com/article/facebook-outage-small-business-...
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @06:32PM (#28858435)
Thank you for sharing this. Facebook received a lot of criticism for how they lobbied publicly against iOS14. Their reputation is ruined, and anything they say will always be taking with a cynical afterthought. But as much as it pains me to say it, they are 100% right in saying that iOS14 is indirectly going to create a lot of damage for SMBs and companies trying to disrupt the status quo. There's more nuance to it, but think of it this way: if your marketing budget plans on reaching 100m Americans each year, then the negative impact on micro targeting is not quite as bad since you're going for the mainstream customer anyway. But if you're trying to reach only 1m people, then losing micro targeting is a matter of life or death.
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by croes on Wednesday October 13, 2021 @08:46PM (#28859308)
>Also, as another member pointed out, Airbnb's performance marketing budget is still well over $200M/year, which no responsible/public company would spend if it wasn't returning a great ROAS

That's not really an argument. You wish that a responsible/public company wouldn't do that but we have seen much dumber behavior.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Thursday October 14, 2021 @12:18AM (#28860478)
Now I am curious - what are the examples of unprofitable performance marketing campaigns at that scale conducted by public companies?
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by dangrossman on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:17AM (#28861071)
> When P&G turned off $200 million of their digital ad spending, they saw NO CHANGE in business outcomes. When Chase reduced their programmatic reach from 400,000 sites showing its ads to 5,000 sites (a 99% decrease), they saw NO CHANGE in business outcomes. When Uber turned off $120 million of their digital ad spending meant to drive more app installs, they saw NO CHANGE in the rate of app installs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/augustinefou/2021/01/02/when-bi...

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by aerosmile on Thursday October 14, 2021 @07:05AM (#28862743)
That was an incredibly misleading article. If you check the links, you find the following:

1. P&G didn't turn off that spend, it shifted it to other marketing platforms.

2. Chase didn't change its marketing spend, it just concentrated it from 400k sites to 5k sites.

3. Uber found out that their agency was committing fraud and AFAIK the case is still being litigated.

I hate being that guy, but check the links. Those reporters really must have an agenda or something (or are just struggling to get the clicks, so they need to make a story out of nothing).

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by croes on Thursday October 14, 2021 @11:18AM (#28865481)
To 1. "P&G’s $200 million digital cut were reinvested into areas with “media reach” including television, audio and ecommerce" So they awitched to other platforms with mostly no back channel and no user tracking. So the whole tracking seems to be pointless
Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:46AM (#28862184)
Like, this is probably true for advertisers who have a well known brand. One would expect incrementality to be lower, because everyone's already heard of the brand.

However, if you are a new entrant/small business this is not the case, because nobody has ever heard of you.

As an example, look at TikTok. They spent insane amounts of money on FB ads to get as many installs as possible, but I'd suspect that they don't do this anymore because they've got enough brand equity that it doesn't make as much financial sense.

Re:What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam? by croes on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:00AM (#28861953)
My point is not exclusively advertising but that it is wishful thinking that companies always make sensible decisions. Often enough, useless or even harmful things continue to be pushed through, simply so that one doesn't have to admit to oneself that one has made a mistake. They would rather try to achieve a positive result with larger investments after all, which usually fails and leads to even larger losses, than to exit early and get away with smaller losses. Therefore, the statement that a reasonable company would not act this way is not covered by reality. Companies should not act this way, but they do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment