No, that is not my claim.
My claim is that the summary numbers at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28823492 , which purport to demonstrate that teachers are being paid at roughly market rates, is invalid. [1]
I don't claim anything unique or radically different about teachers.
[1] To wit: the analysis shows equal earnings, but 1) doesn't show equal time, 2) doesn't show that the earnings are only from teaching over 10 months, and 3) doesn't factor in the teachers with a MS degree or higher.
> Do you have quantification for this claim of involuntary uncompensated labor?
I do not know what "involuntary uncompensated" means. I do not know how to categorize when off-school-grounds work is "catchup work due to unproductive workers" or due to some other factor. I do not see how those terms are meaningful.
At https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28825539 I linked to https://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_ful... which says "teachers work an average of 10 hours and 40 minutes a day, three hours and 20 minutes beyond the average required work day in public schools nationwide".
Different sources give different times, and I am not able to tell how to interpret all of the sources. Eg, if a teacher works in an office job over summer, is that income counted in the total annual income to the median teacher? And are the time estimates similarly adjusted?
On the other hand, the comment with summary numbers cited Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers combined with an objective overall measure of productive working months of the year.
If the majority of teachers are so inefficient that they spend 44% additional hours to accomplish their daily mission then there is a much larger problem than compensation. That this occurs in a well-unionized occupation is bizarre. It's as if the unions were aligned against the workers for some reason.
At https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 I linked to a BLS report titled "Teachers’ work patterns: when, where, and how much do U.S. teachers work?", at https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf . (Note: this is also a 'self-reported survey'.)
Do note this BLS report uses "health care professionals, business and financial operations professionals, architects and engineers, community and social services professionals, managers, and others" as the baseline, and not "people with a bachelor's degree", so it is not a 1:1 equivalence with willcipriano's baseline.
In particular note figure 8 where "Teachers were more likely than other professionals to be multiple job holders" and the caption pointing out how teachers who work over the summer in a field other than teaching are included in the "other professional" category.
Thus, I have a hard time figuring out if a teacher who has an extra job grading an AP exam is counted as "teaching work" or "other professional." I also can't tell if continuing education is categorized as "work" or is one of the other activity categories not shown. (BTW, https://www.weareteachers.com/teacher-overtime/ estimates 100 hours on professional development, not the 40 I mentioned for continuing education.)
This is what I meant by "Different sources give different times, and I am not able to tell how to interpret all of the sources." and why I wrote "I have no belief that a simple analysis using the numbers [willcipriano] presented gives a reliable understanding."
Regarding your statement: "summary numbers [which] cited Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers combined with an objective overall measure of productive working months of the year"
As I pointed out, that same BLS source reports the summer holidays are 2 months, not the 2.5 willcipriano stated, and the BLS source comments that teachers "may also work evenings and weekends to prepare lessons and grade papers." This of course changes the analysis and increases the uncertainty, by an unknown factor.
Regaring "an objective overall measure". That sole measure is "awarded a bachelor degree". We already had the discussion that the median bachelor degree holder doesn't have the accreditation and continuing education requirement teachers have. Furthermore, the BLS "Teachers’ work patterns" document uses "professionals" as the comparison category, not bachelor degree. Why is willcipriano's baseline objectively better than the BLS's?
> If the majority of teachers are so inefficient
You have not established that they are inefficient. I do not even know what this means. How do you measure it?
An airline pilot is paid for flight hours. All other times, eg, flight precheck, staff meetings, etc. are unpaid.
Are pilots inefficient?
> average required work day for teachers is 7.5 hours
Why did you omit the qualifier that "required work day" was only "time during which they are required to be on school grounds"?
Have you established that teachers are expected to have all of their grading and lesson planning done while on school grounds? The BLS doesn't think so - why do you?
https://www.businessinsider.com/teachers-time-spent-after-sc... "spoke to six teachers and asked them how much time they spent on their jobs outside of the classroom. Answers varied, but on average most said that they take home two to three hours of work a day. Additionally, nearly all of the teachers we spoke to said they come into school early, and stay around an hour late."
> well-unionized occupation
Teacher unions are not that strong. Eg, the WV teachers had a wildcat strike in 2018 because the union wasn't effective. Unions in the US are not that strong - Taft-Hartley took away a lot of union power.
Take Chart 2. That is teachers "who were employed during the week prior to their interview and who did some work during that period".
In Chart 1 we see at least 50% of teachers did at least some work in summer. Eg, if they did 1 hour of work in that week then the average in Chart 2 would be lower than the hours spent on a typical school day, which is what I believe the Gates report concerns. What I want is "hours worked in a year", which that BLS report doesn't give.
Looking around more, I found https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED575193.pdf ("Results From the 2015–16 National Teacher and Principal Survey"). In it I see "On average, regular full-time teachers in public schools spent 53 hours per week on all school-related activities, including 27 hours that they were paid to deliver instruction to students during a typical full week. Public school teachers were required to work an average of 38 hours per week to receive their base pay (table 5)"
Curiously: "53 hours per week" if interpreted as 53 hours per 5 day work week = 10 hours and 36 minutes per work day, which is very close to the Gates report of 10 hours and 40 minutes. I .... think I'll trust the Dept. of Education when they use a 7 day week instead of a 5 day work week.
If this is correct:
53 hours/school week * 9.5 job-related months
(9.5 = two months for summer + 2 weeks Christmas)
= 53 * (9.5/12) * 52
= 2182 hours / year
Thus:
HS teacher pay per hour worked = $62,870 / 2182 hours = $28.81/hour
median bachelor degree = $72,830 / 2000 hours = $36.41/hour
You haven't explained how "inefficiency" has any relevance, much less how you measure it. You haven't explained why the "objective overall measure" is a relevant measure. You added tangential topics like union power.
Yes, agreed. And if our earnings are equal then I am effectively being compensated better for my time. On the other hand, if I earn .875 to your one, then we are being compensated equally. Likewise, if person A works 10/12ths the time of person B and earns 10/12ths the wage, then they are also compensated equally.
As I understand your claim, for teachers uniquely the other 2/12ths are spent performing non-compensated activities that are necessary to remain a member of the profession in good standing or to satisfy requirements of a particular workplace such as extra-curricular activities or off-clock administrative work. As a result, it is wrong to discount the average salary of a teacher by 2/12ths.
I don't agree with this analysis and I have addressed both topics.
For professional licensing, many occupations have continuing education coursework and examinations and even many workplaces outside of a particular profession require the same. Teaching does not seem unique to me in this respect. Do you consider the professional licensing of teachers to be radically different than the many other occupations with requirements for a bachelors degree and licensing?
Teachers may also engage in labor outside their regular duties that may or may not be completely voluntary and compensated. For the purpose of this discussion I will focus on involuntary and uncompensated labor. To the extent and degree that this exists outside of catchup work due to unproductive workers (such as grading papers after hours, preparing curricula over the summer, etc), I have not seen quantified or compared to other workplaces. Thus it would be difficult to compare to other occupations with requirements for a bachelors degree and licensing. Do you have quantification for this claim of involuntary uncompensated labor?