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Re:Life of a Chinese Gold Farmer by pg on Monday June 18, 2007 @12:05AM (#28798)
And the alternatives to capitalism have an even nastier problem: absolute instead of merely relative poverty.

Incidentally, the Chinese wouldn't starve without sweatshops. They'd be peasant farmers. The reason they work in sweatshops is the same reason workers chose to work in the "satanic mills" of England in 1800: being a peasant farmer is a very hard life.

Re:Life of a Chinese Gold Farmer by Tichy on Monday June 18, 2007 @04:17AM (#28821)
I don't know about China, and not about the satanic mills, but as I have recently about the industrial revolution: back then actually it wasn't possible for everybody to be a farmer anymore. On the one hand, there was an enormous population explosion (which had also been encouraged by Feudalism, I think, the "owners" of the people had an interest in owning more people for a while). Then Feudalism was abolished, and nobody took care of the people anymore. hence the poverty and their willingness to do awful work. In that sense, I don't think Capitalism was really to blame. I suspect a similar thing could be going on in China.
Re:Life of a Chinese Gold Farmer by pg on Monday June 18, 2007 @08:00AM (#28842)
Are you implying that the Industrial Revolution was caused by population pressure? That would be an amazing coincidence, wouldn't it, if jobs in factories appeared at just the moment it "wasn't possible to be a farmer anymore."

In fact the history of every country that industrializes is the same. People work on farms till jobs appear in factories, and then they move to the cities-- not because it isn't possible to work on farms anymore, but because it's such a grim life.

And incidentally, feudalism was over in England centuries before the Industrial Revolution got started in the late 18th century.

Re:Life of a Chinese Gold Farmer by lupin_sansei on Monday June 18, 2007 @08:06AM (#28843)
Exactly. The guy above got it back to front. The population explosion was because of the extra wealth from the industrial revolution lowering the death rate due to the end of famine. http://www.mises.org/books/conquest.pdf

Feudalism ended in England in the 16th century, hundreds of years before the industrial revolution http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0006447.html

Re:Life of a Chinese Gold Farmer by Tichy on Monday June 18, 2007 @08:53AM (#28849)
Well then it wouldn't be a coincidence, would it? I mean if population explosion was caused by the industrial revolution. I didn't mean the industrial revolution was started by population explosion, only the squalor was (among other factors) caused by it.

Sorry I don't have the books with me right now (until next week), and I didn't learn them by heart. I seem to also remember that there were machines before the "revolution" - maybe it still was a change of political circumstances that permitted the revolution (free trade between countries, possibility of ownership giving incentives for entrepreneurs etc.). Certainly several factors worked in combination, it's not like the invention of a particular machine triggered it all.

I also seem to remember that China has the fewest farmland per person of all countries in the world. I don't think anybody can simply be a farmer. I know I couldn't just be a farmer in my country.

Re:Life of a Chinese Gold Farmer by lupin_sansei on Monday June 18, 2007 @01:40AM (#28807)
Not to mention that wages in the mills were much much higher than in farming.