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Re:AlphaGo documentary (2020) [video] by roenxi on Saturday September 11, 2021 @11:58PM (#28498529)
Go is a bit different from Chess, there are so many options that you can't really have a "disgusting engine line", because either sequences are forced and humans can find them too eventually or the number of lines the move effects is so vast that we would never realise how clever it is.

Computer Go is obviously making calculations that a human couldn't, but as an observer it just looks like not making any mistakes. There is the occasional spectacular attack or defence, but humans do that too from time to time - human players often see or try moves that others wouldn't. In complicated situations computers will do a better job at assessing what the impacts are.

In Go, to win a player needs to consistently make moves that are on average 0.0025 points better than their opponent for 300 moves. It is hard to detect the genius if a neural net decides it is going to win the game that way.

The games are interesting to study, they are all masterworks. But the strength of a Go player is in the consistency rather than individual flashes of insight.

Re:AlphaGo documentary (2020) [video] by zeven7 on Sunday September 12, 2021 @12:57AM (#28498730)
I disagree with this comment quite strongly. Go has a lot of high level theory and pattern recognition that is very different from just reading ahead, and AlphaGo has opened up a lot of new theory that we didn't have before, not unlike what was done by Go Seigen and others in the Shin Fuseki era.

I feel like the emphasis of your comment misses how the game has changed for humans since AlphaGo.

Re:AlphaGo documentary (2020) [video] by roenxi on Sunday September 12, 2021 @01:26AM (#28498812)
> not unlike what was done by Go Seigen and others in the Shin Fuseki era

That is the crux of it though; we're seeing the same effect as every time a new strong player arises. That doesn't scream "wow, this is like when chess engines discovered impossible new lines!".

It was probably a matter of time until some human pro started winning with the 3-3 invasion for example. It isn't like 3-3 invasions are a radical new thing, professional play just underweighted them. I've played amateurs who loved 3-3 invasions.

There is no question that the neural nets are substantially stronger than humans and that they're causing a monumental rethink of all aspects of the game. They're a big deal. But the difference is that they are bringing a very large number of innovations all at once, combined with far more accurate reading, rather than that any individual innovation is special.

It is really difficult for one sequence in Go to be special, because it is so common for a special sequence to happen.

Re:AlphaGo documentary (2020) [video] by throwaway81523 on Sunday September 12, 2021 @03:29AM (#28499272)
I remember reading that humans play the corners and edges of the board, where the game is somewhat understandable given a combination of keen perception, pattern recognition, and concrete calculation. It is on the other hand inhumanly hard to understand playing further in the board interior (other than by reaching it incrementally from the edges), maybe excepting a few legendary players like Go Seigen. But the AI's have been going there and doing stuff, letting humans learn things that were previously unknown.
Re:AlphaGo documentary (2020) [video] by roenxi on Sunday September 12, 2021 @04:10AM (#28499429)
That doesn't sound right. Humans and AIs play in the corners and on the sides first because that is where it is easier to make points. One of the traits of how neural nets learn Go is they start by learning to fight and then quickly realise that the corners are more important than the centre. AIs largely confirmed the usual human pattern.

AIs have changed all the details about what is considered an acceptable result in the corners.

Although AI do brutally outplay humans in the centre when the game gets there, no question. Normally after outplaying them everywhere else first.

Re:AlphaGo documentary (2020) [video] by zeven7 on Monday September 13, 2021 @01:40PM (#28514323)
> That is the crux of it though; we're seeing the same effect as every time a new strong player arises.

Ok, I agree with you there. It's like AlphaGo is the next in the line of Dosaku -> Shusaku -> Go Seigen. These types of players that have revolutionized the game have been very rare, and I see AlphaGo as fitting into that mold.

> That doesn't scream "wow, this is like when chess engines discovered impossible new lines!".

I admittedly don't know enough about chess to understand this aspect of the discussion.