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Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by MDWolinski on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:28AM (#28367075)
I'm wondering how this will eventually play out if most companies start requiring Apple/Google to allow third-party apps to use their own payment system.

The commission fee that Apple charges, 30% is partially to cover operating/marketing etc. Obviously, Apple makes a good profit off the App Store these days, even though Jobs said he'd be happy if it was break even at best.

Here's an analogy I've been thinking on about this whole thing. The iPhone (or whatever phone you want) is the equivalent of a Walmart store. If you want your product to be sold in Walmart, you have to send it to their distribution center (ie App Store) and Walmart will handle sending that product out, etc. Walmart will handle the credit card transactions, etc and pay you the negotiated rate for your product (Yes, odds are Walmart buys your product first, then sells it, but with credit lines, etc it's almost the same thing).

Does Walmart allow you to go in, put your product in the store and sit there with a square device and sell your stuff? Amazon is more analogous of physical to app in the sense that Amazon is the transaction point but may or may not actually maintain control of the product.

So what's the end game? I suspect if Apple/Google has to allow developers to collect their own fees, Apple will start charging paid apps to be in the App store.

They will continue to allow free apps to be shown, but if you want to charge for your App either one time or subscription, you'll have to pay an upfront fee to be listed.

And that charge may depend on the number of downloads.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by WA on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:05AM (#28367544)
> The commission fee that Apple charges, 30% is partially to cover operating/marketing etc.

Then by all means, please charge me separately for these things. Because I don’t need them. Apple doesn’t do marketing for me, never promoted my app. People find my app through my own marketing channels.

Charge me roughly 2 % for In App Purchases just like Stripe and PayPal.

Charge me a traffic fee for whatever download traffic I cause. This way, I at least benefit from my app being only like 5 MB in size.

If I want to be featured on the App Store, charge me.

The rest like App Store listing? Covered by my $100 developer fee.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by jamil7 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:29AM (#28367809)
> Then by all means, please charge me separately for these things. Because I don’t need them. Apple doesn’t do marketing for me, never promoted my app. People find my app through my own marketing channels.

This, maybe it was different in the early days but they do literally nothing to help you market your app until you've already driven enough traffic to it yourself for them to take notice.

If you do get featured you get an email indicating that you might get featured and need to design and submit app store banner artwork with a whole list of things that you're not allowed to display.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by joshstrange on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:52AM (#28369559)
> Charge me roughly 2 % for In App Purchases just like Stripe and PayPal.

This is so disingenuous and I'm so tired of seeing Apple's fee pegged at 30% (even though it 15% for the VAST majority of developers) and then turn around and pretend Stripe/PP offer anything close to 2%.

Paypal is 3.5% + $0.49

Stripe is 2.9% + $0.30

At low price points (you know, the price points that almost all IAP/Paid App are at save for longer, like annual, subscriptions) your fee is still substantial.

If you are lucky Apple will create a special provision for 3rd party payment providers that will provide subscription/cancellation/refund/etc infrastructure. If they don't do that then you can expect the above rates to be even higher. 2% is only obtainable with a more bare-bones payment processor so you will have to build quite a bit up and any company providing full "app payment services" is going to charge more than Stripe/PayPal. Heck, even the prices I listed for Stripe are the lowest they go (unless you are doing over 1.5M annually and qualify for bulk/volume pricing) and if you want things like fraud protection that's extra. Oh you want to calculate tax? Extra .5%. Fraud protections? $.05 or $.07/per transaction extra. Chargeback protection? Extra .4%, and the list goes on.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by WA on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @03:51PM (#28372681)
- 15% is a rather new development. Most devs paid 30% for many years. I paid 30% for over 10 years.

- Stripe is cheaper in the EU for EU cards. 1.4% plus €0.25

- Apple didn’t even notify me about individual refunds for what? 10 years? And it’s still unreliable and annoying so that I don’t even bother, because I get like 3 refunds per month. You could actually get a refund and still keep the app for a long time.

- People complain to me if they want a refund, but Apple gives me no control. I have to redirect them to Apple customer support. I am perceived as the bad person and this costs me money in terms of customer support and I can’t even help people, because Apple wants to own the relationship between app devs and customers.

There are so many silly things about the App Store that your quotation of 15% as a generous service is laughable.

Edit: but yes, Stripe and PayPal are more than 2% in reality, but far from 15% or even 30%, except for micro transactions.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by sumedh on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:34AM (#28367159)
> If you want your product to be sold in Walmart

No one is forcing you to go through Walmart. The problem with IOS is that you are forced to go through Apple. A user cannot pay, download and install the app directly from a developers website.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by ubermonkey on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:43AM (#28367285)
Nobody is forcing you to sell to iOS, though.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by belorn on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:01AM (#28367500)
We can go up the whole chain and in the end the root platform are nations. If you want access to citizens in a country you got to go through that nations laws, and nobody is forcing apple to sell iOS in Korea.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by sumedh on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:09AM (#28367592)
That argument does not work when there are only two service providers in town, Apple and Google.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by ubermonkey on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @12:12PM (#28369813)
It works precisely because there is an alternative with less onerous rules. It works even better because the alternative provider is BY FAR the larger player.

Apple is a minority player in mobile.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by sumedh on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @07:28AM (#28378497)
Why do you think Apply reduced their fees for small developers and now allow developers to let their customers know that cheaper payment options are available, they know they are abusing that position so to stave off regulations they did that.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by IsoldesKnight on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:42AM (#28367275)
> The iPhone (or whatever phone you want) is the equivalent of a Walmart store.

The major difference here is that while I don't own the Walmart store, I do own my phone. What is allowed to be sold in the store is determined by Walmart, just as what's installed on my phone should be determined by me, the owner.

Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by MDWolinski on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:49AM (#28367352)
Ownership is a valid point. I'm not arguing either course, I'd like to see the ability to be able to install Apps myself just as I do on a Mac or PC mostly because I'm tired of the forced puritism of companies these days.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by ballenf on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:34AM (#28367162)
Walt Disney looked at Disneyworld/land as ideally break even. Sad how they both lost the battle for vision to the accountants. Disney parks now feels like a nightmare game with IAP at every turn. You grind through ride lines or can pay to skip them. Food, toys, etc that you see everyone else enjoying and feel a nearly irresistible pull to buy.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by ToruiDev on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:32AM (#28367139)
But at least for apple you already pay a 100$/year fee for them to distribute your apps.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by MDWolinski on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:46AM (#28367323)
I'm sure Apple will say that fee is to help pay for the development of the developer tools.
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by giyokun on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @12:42PM (#28370289)
Because Apple doesn't need those tools internally to develop their OS and apps?
Re:Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems,... by metalliqaz on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:31AM (#28367128)
I don't have to go into a Walmart if I want to shop.