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Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by actually_a_dog on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:35PM (#28293780)
How about we start with massive amounts of loan fraud?

https://themreport.com/daily-dose/12-08-2020/the-role-of-len...

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by kasey_junk on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:44PM (#28293916)
Worth noting that if you were going to go after loan fraud you likely would be charging low level folks in the mortgage pipeline (appraisers, mortgage brokers, etc) or even the borrowers, not Wall Street CEOs.
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by taway2021s on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:49PM (#28293993)
You dont necessarily need to charge the Wall Street CEOs. You can charge the Senior Managing Director of Structured Products. Or MD of Structured Products banking/trading/risk/whatever. There were plenty of individuals who set policy to enable this. No need for a scarecrow argument about CEO or bust. I could literally look thru Linked In or a Bloomberg Terminal and figure out who the responsible parties are. Too bad they all go to the same country clubs as the folks at the SEC and NY Times

At the same time, convicting a low level work in his 20s as the ring leader (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/01/fabulous-fa...) is disingenuous.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by mojomark on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:13PM (#28294338)
> You dont necessarily need to charge the Wall Street CEOs. You can charge the Senior Managing Director of Structured Products.

You can delegate authority, not responsibility.

This fundamental rule of hierarchical organizations is why CEO's need to be held accountable. CEO's are responsible for creating the environment, culture and rules that allow such activities to take place. Failure within an organization on a CEO's watch is that CEO's fault. That's why CEO's deserve high compensation - because the difficulty and risk are so high. If there's no CEO penalty for failing (or worse, breaking the law), than all companies in society suffer.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by nickff on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:36PM (#28294663)
The problem is that it is impossible to delegate authority, but no responsibility. Realistically, the CEO of a large company cannot know everything that happens under the umbrella, much like the President of the USA cannot know what every government employees does. In both situations, some subordinates will inevitably commit crimes in the name of the organization (eventually), and holding the person at the top completely responsible is totally unreasonable.
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by taway2021s on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @05:29PM (#28295231)
>> In both situations, some subordinates will inevitably commit crimes in the name of the organization (eventually), and holding the person at the top completely responsible is totally unreasonable.

My entire argument was that someone somewhere along the chain was indeed responsible and it doesnt have to be the CEO. Youre arguing that the CEO cannot be completely responsible, which totally sidesteps the 14 other layers of people responsible and also conveniently ignores the other 14 layers that could be held responsible, investigated, and prosecuted.

Fine, the CEO cant be responsible -- is absolutely no one responsible at all within the organization? If so, how did tens of billions of dollars of profits pour in? How can no one be responsible and yet the companies be so profitable?

Probably has something to do with the upper-crust NY culture where those at the SEC, NY Times, SD-DoJ, and Walls Street are all friends. It is also not surprising that the two individuals on whom most issues were hung were a French trader with a deep french accent and an Egyption desk head at a Swiss bank.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/01/gol...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Serageldin

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by soco on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @07:14PM (#28296157)
And this is why exactly none is ever held responsible for any crime done by an organization with more than two levels of authority. In my opinion, the problem is not the organization, but the lack of legal framework to put them all in jail. Then you'd see how all subordinates and CxOs would scramble to fix their shady practices. But I guess a clean business environment wouldn't be "competitive" or what's the word of the month...
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by NovemberWhiskey on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:54PM (#28294071)
>You can charge the Senior Managing Director of Structured Products

... like Kareem Serageldin. Who went to prison.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by taway2021s on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:06PM (#28294233)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Serageldin

He was literally the ONLY single person who did.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by rkk3 on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:58PM (#28294117)
What do you charge them with? They were effectively lied to about the underlying assets that went into the securities.
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by actually_a_dog on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:45PM (#28293928)
Not at the scale noted in the article I linked:

> Mortgage originators that emphasized profit-fueled quantity over loan quality, which resulted in the misreporting of key financial information in 48% of loans securitized by nongovernment agencies;

If 48% of your company's financial transactions were fraudulent, would you expect the CEO to bear responsibility for that? At that point, I'd expect to see a RICO case, or something come out of it.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by kasey_junk on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:55PM (#28294078)
I probably would but proving that they acted _criminally_ would be hard. You can’t just wave your hands and make up a law they broke.

Meanwhile, that number likely means that the borrowers lied on those same applications. That’s where the fraud actually occurred. And would be easy to prove.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by actually_a_dog on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:04PM (#28294205)
I told you the law: RICO.

> The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The RICO Act focuses specifically on racketeering and allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes they ordered others to do or assisted them in doing, closing a perceived loophole. For example, before RICO, a person who instructed someone else to murder could be exempt from prosecution because they did not personally commit the crime.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corru...

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by kasey_junk on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:28PM (#28294562)
You’d need to prove that a “Wall Street CEO” told someone to commit mortgage fraud. That almost certainly didn’t happen.

Quite the opposite you’ll find all manner of examples of the CEO’s enabling things like anti-fraud and risk management teams.

The issue was the implicit organizational pressures between those parts of the companies and the lending/revenue arms.

Making a new class of law that makes those implicit conflicts a criminal responsibility of company CEOs seems extremely fraught, but more importantly those laws didn’t exist at the time.

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by jcranmer on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:35PM (#28294653)
> You’d need to prove that a “Wall Street CEO” told someone to commit mortgage fraud.

For it to be RICO, no you do not need to prove that. You need to prove more. You'd need to prove that the "Wall Street CEO" told someone to commit mortgage fraud, and then used the proceeds of that mortgage fraud to take control of an enterprise (which would presumably have to exclude the company of which he is CEO).

(https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1962, for reference)

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by jcranmer on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:30PM (#28294598)
RICO requires as predicate acts other laws to be broken before it can even kick in. So if there's no fraud in the first place, then there can be no RICO.

More importantly, there's a specific sequence of connections between the original predicate acts of racketeering and the control of the enterprise that has to be established for it to happen. 18 USC §1962 has the gory details, but I just don't see how the CEO can possibly be guilty of RICO.

As Ken White says, it's never RICO: https://www.popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-...

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by pengstrom on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @05:28PM (#28295219)
It's hardly a coincidence that we're missing laws that would be useful in this case. The bankers and politicians are too similar for this to be probable.
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by rkk3 on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:52PM (#28294037)
The corruption may be rampant but those aren't "Wall Street" jobs. Countrywide was based out of Calabasas, California.
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by actually_a_dog on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:57PM (#28294106)
There's no way half the loans in a portfolio are fraudulent, and that doesn't get noticed. That includes by the Wall Street firms that are repackaging and securitizing them as CDOs and CDSs. At some point, in a functioning system, that does attract the attention of the CEO.
Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by oefrha on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:09PM (#28294273)
This reminds me of the documentary film Abacus: Small Enough to Jail about how a tiny community bank became the only financial institution criminally charged in relation to the subprime mortgage crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus:_Small_Enough_to_Jail

Re:Why didn’t any Wall Street CEOs go to jail after the fina... by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @04:14PM (#28294362)
This sounds very Mafia-esque.

We created RICO to convict the Mafia. Not sure why we can't create a new type of crime to hold financial companies responsible for massive fraud.

I mean - we already have Securities Fraud - for which bank CEOs should be held accountable. I'm not sure how they escaped from that.