> How it always happens? How much time have you spend in multi-lingual contexts? How do you think creols and slang develope? Language naturally evolves to fit the needs of people who use it.
This is a failure to demonstrate how promoting language standards may result in increased discrimination.
Again, whether a language standard is promoted or not, people will discriminate against others who differ from them. The existence of a language standard removes the confusion and ambiguity as to what the correct form of the language is. This enables everyone to participate in the usage of the language equally.
> Funnily enough, your example, python, actually has two versions in use. If everyone refused to use python 3 because it was "bad python" then the communtiy would have been worse off.
Right and it took an official body with authority over the language to get everyone to reunite over Python 3. If no official body stepped up and no standard version was declared, there may still be large fragmentation between Python 2 and 3. Everyone clearly understands fragmentation of a language community is a stark negative. You are suggesting we pretend that a standard form of English does not exist which would only result in further fragmentation of English, which just as in Python, would be a bad thing for the community at large.
> Ideally you can also teach this standard without impicitly judging people as stupid and uneducated when they use their native dialect.
No one in this thread ever suggested using language standards for this purpose. And again, the existence of a language standard is largely orthogonal to this phenomenon. Judging people as stupid comes from differences in people, not language standards. In the absence of the existence of a “correct English” the judgements would transition from “you are not speaking correct English” (which is shared by all) to “you are not speaking my tribe’s English” (which is unique to a single tribe and would be a lot more tribally divisive).
> Who decides what is standard?
Whoever is the appropriate authority of the language. It could be a national government or an academic organization. Language standardization isn’t a new concept, nearly all European languages have gone through a standardization phase. It’s a solved problem. This is the equivalent of saying we can’t standardize Python because there is no obvious way to decide who is allowed to standardize it. That is just silly. Either an interested committee will form or a pre-existing authority will take on the responsibility.
It does that right now, no "may" about it.
> Again, whether a language standard is promoted or not, people will discriminate against others who differ from them.
"Promoted" is a too nice a word when the reality is that the standard is used limit the opportunities of people who don't follow the standard.
> You are suggesting we pretend that a standard form of English does not exist
It doesn't exist. There is no single standard English, there isn't even a standard set of spellings for English.
> Judging people as stupid comes from differences in people, not language standards.
I've literally had people tell that they assume someone is stupider if they use the "me" instead of "I" in an "and" clause.
> Whoever is the appropriate authority of the language. It could be a national government or an academic organization. Language standardization isn’t a new concept, nearly all European languages have gone through a standardization phase.
There is no such authority for English, so there is no standard?
Also, "standardisation" didn't work for German or Spanish (the other two European languages I speak) as local dialects diverge significantly from the "official standard". It is far from "solved".
> This is the equivalent of saying we can’t standardize Python because there is no obvious way to decide who is allowed to standardize it.
That isn't what I said at all.
> In the absence of the existence of a “correct English” the judgements would transition from “you are not speaking correct English” (which is shared by all) to “you are not speaking my tribe’s English” (which is unique to a single tribe and would be a lot more tribally divisive).
Those judgements already happen. Teaching people about each other's dialects would make them less foriegn and lead to less judgement and better understanding.
When you take that position that there is "one correct English", that makes it harder to encourage people to learn each other's dialects and it encourages discrimination against people whose dialects differ more from the one correct English.
Finally, I'll repeat myself: I am not wholey opposed to language standards on principle. A good language standard would be determined inclusive organization that is representative of all its speakers, would be a living standard that changes as the underlying language and it's dialects change (i.e descriptive), and would understood as common reference point for communication rather than as the one correct way of using that language ( i.e. not proscriptive).
English does not have such a such a standard and other language standards I am aware of are not super effective and tend to be rather eurocentric and not inclusive of their broader populations.
> It does that right now, no "may" about it.
If language standards indeed cause discrimination, please demonstrate how. Otherwise this is a baseless claim.
> I've literally had people tell that they assume someone is stupider if they use the "me" instead of "I" in an "and" clause.
So you think if a standard English did not exist, then people would no longer judge others who speak differently from them as stupid?
> A good language standard would be determined inclusive organization that is representative of all its speakers, would be a living standard that changes as the underlying language and it's dialects change (i.e descriptive), and would understood as common reference point for communication rather than as the one correct way of using that language ( i.e. not proscriptive).
Right so you support the idea of a language standard, likely for all the benefits I’ve listed, except when people use them to make other people feel bad. Just a note to everyone reading this: the subject of making people feel bad is a social phenomenon that is entirely orthogonal to whether or not a language standard is “proscriptive.” The term he is looking for is “normative” and all standards, language or not, must be normative to a degree.
That wasn't my claim. My claim was that prescriptive approaches to language facilitate and magnify discrimination and have historically frequently been used to justify and enforce discrimination. You can look at how regional UK dialects affect employability and education outcomes. You can look at the way speakers of the ebonics dialect have been forces to learn to change not just their dialect but their accent to get jobs. There is such a wealth of examples of the roles that language plays in descrimination that suggesting otherwise seems odd to me.
> So you think if a standard English did not exist, then people would no longer judge others who speak differently from them as stupid?
I think if we encouraged people to gain more exposure to other dialects in school and didn't teach people that those dialects are wrong then there would be less judging of people based on how they speak rather than what they are saying.
> Right so you support the idea of a language standard, likely for all the benefits I’ve listed, except when people use them to make other people feel bad.
That is not what I said. I might support a standard, depending on how that standard is determined, how it is promoted and how flexible it is to change.
My concerns with linguistic standards has nothing to do with "making people feel bad" and everything to do with denying opportunities to people. I've stated this repeatedly so I'm not sure why this isn't getting through...
> The term he is looking for is “normative” and all standards, language or not, must be normative to a degree.
No, the term is the one I used originally but then mistyped in my last response "prescriptive" ("proscriptive" is the opposite, telling people what not to do rather than what what to do.)
"Normative" and "prescriptive" are similar but distinct terms. When you tell people how to speak, that is prescriptive, when you judge people based on how they speak, that is normative. So in my view, prescriptive linguistics encourages normative behaviors around language.
If you apply for a job in China and you only speak broken Chinese, resembling a pidgin language, it’s not “discrimination” if you are not hired. Similarly, if you apply to a position where you are expected to speak standard English and you only speak a lesser known dialect, that is not discrimination either. It’s not meeting job requirements. Yes it’s unfortunate that those who don’t have the skill of speaking standard English cannot obtain those jobs, just as it’s unfortunate non-Chinese speakers cannot obtain jobs in Chinese-speaking areas. The good news is that we have brains that are capable of learning new skills.
> My claim was that prescriptive approaches to language facilitate and magnify discrimination and have historically frequently been used to justify and enforce discrimination.
This is just false. Discrimination is a social phenomenon that itself is causal to your so-called prescriptive approach to language, not the other way around. In other words, the pre-existing discriminatory attitude causes the exclusionary behavior in language not vice versa. It’s silly to blame racism/classism on the promotion of correct English. Especially when the existence of a standard for correct English makes it clear and unambiguous for new people entering the English-speaking world how they can most effectively communicate with existing English speakers.
Except the dialects are often local to the places where the opportunities are being sought and can exist due to a long history of racism driven segregation...so you analogy is completely erroneous.
> In other words, the pre-existing discriminatory attitude causes the exclusionary behavior in language not vice versa.
I'm glad to hear you admit alteast part of this. If you grant that discrimination leads to some language prescriptions, is it that hard to see how those prescriptions, when used normatively by people with no intention of racism, can end up perpetuating the exact racist attitudes that lead to the creation of those language prescriptions?
This is precisely my point: this history and the current reality means that we should be care about how and when it is worth spreading prescriptive approaches to language, ideally limiting it to times when ambiguity is created or meaning is lost.
“Local” is totally subjective. The core point is that requiring that a job application speaks in a certain manner is not necessarily unjust and likely in the vast majority of cases is a pragmatic matter. Language / dialect is not an intrinsic property of someone’s identity. People are able to learn new accents, dialects, and languages. Accents being the easiest to learn. It’s not a protected class. The existence of a standard makes it easier for newcomers to learn the language.
> If you grant that discrimination leads to some language prescriptions, is it that hard to see how those prescriptions, when used normatively by people with no intention of racism, can end up perpetuating the exact racist attitudes that lead to the creation of those language prescriptions?
No, that’s nonsense. If someone’s feelings are unintentionally hurt because they are made aware that their English is not correct, that is not racism.
It definitely is not a talking point. This is a stance I have arrived at after studying linguistics, philosohy of language and psychology then doing lots of traveling and spending over a decade thinking about it, all as someone who is inclined towards engaging in language pedantry. If there are errors in reasoning, those errors are mine since it is a stance I arrived at without hearing it from other people.
> How exactly would that happen?
How it always happens? How much time have you spend in multi-lingual contexts? How do you think creols and slang develope? Language naturally evolves to fit the needs of people who use it.
> I propose everyone who desires to participate in the English-speaking world voluntarily unite and find consensus under standard English.
Who decides what is standard? Can the standard change? Is it fair to set that standard as something that one group learns at home and another group has to study and practice to use?
> Stop taking something personally that isn’t personal
It's hard to get more personal than the language you think in and use to talk to the people closest to you.
> we may all better communicate and information can more freely disseminate across more populations.
You say "we", but the "we" for whom it is easier is limited to the people that already speak the annoited "correct" dialect.
> Imagine if people started making the argument that correcting incorrect Python was racist/classist and people should just start forking Python if they do not like standard Python.
Programming "languages" aren't actually languages in any sense that makes your argument here have any value. Programming "languages" are actually complicated mathematical notations. Funnily enough, your example, python, actually has two versions in use. If everyone refused to use python 3 because it was "bad python" then the communtiy would have been worse off.
The fundemental problem with your position is that it is inherently hypocritical, arbitrary and self-serving. You distinguish between the age of "as a lark" and "on a lark" based on an arbirary point in time. There are plenty of idioms / meanings that are younger than "as a lark" but that you hypocritically would accept as just fine. For example, you use the term "forking" in a manner that is both semantically and grammatically very new. If a word or usage arises as part of your dialect, it automatically becomes part of the "standard", but if it arises in the dialect of an outgroup then it qualifies as "incorrect english".
I am not opposed to developing language standards, but those standards need to be both responsive to shifts in the language and inclusive for a wide range of dialects. Ideally you can also teach this standard without impicitly judging people as stupid and uneducated when they use their native dialect. You also need to be careful about using adherence to this standard as a gatekeeper to prevent people from having equal opportunities.