News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by eckesicle on Sunday August 22, 2021 @05:39PM (#28269899)
In this case the neighbouring countries arent great comparators. Population density has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread. Large swaths of the country is empty with the populace being very urbanised. Stockholm has a population density on par with London, and Oslo is about half of that.

Also households look very different in Sweden compared to it's neighbours. The average household size is among the lowest in the world with a very high variability (in particular in poorer areas where large family groups live together and were also disproportionally hit by COVID). That probably had an outsize effect as to why Sweden managed as well as they did. Social distancing and personal space is also pretty much the norm in Sweden even during non-pandemic times.

The Swedish CDC also says they believe they've fared worse than Norway and Denmark because the last few flu seasons were very mild in the country. Looking at the excess mortality numbers for the last few years that does indeed seem to at least explain some of the difference (although the claim has been disputed by their Norwegian counterpart).

It's also notable that Sweden tends to do a little worse than their neighbours through every flu season when it comes to excess death. Maybe COVID also just exacerbated that effect somewhat?

I think that the factors influencing COVID spread are so complex that it is impossible to disentangle how effective any political measures were in all but the most general terms.

In the end I think it mostly came down to luck, where those countries that managed to avoid clusters and super spreader events or more infectious strands early on fared better.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by yyyk on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:23PM (#28270255)
>The Swedish CDC also says they believe they've fared worse than Norway and Denmark because the last few flu seasons were very mild in the country.

It's called the 'dry tinder' hypothesis, and it isn't born out when researchers look at the data, e.g.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34213362/

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by eckesicle on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:36PM (#28270380)
Thanks!
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by eckesicle on Monday August 23, 2021 @03:49AM (#28273259)
I have mostly changed my opinion on this matter after reading this blog post (linked elsewhere in the thread too) https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/lockdown-effectiveness...
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by user-the-name on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:35PM (#28270373)
> In this case the neighbouring countries arent great comparators

As someone living in a neighbouring country, this is bullshit. They are perfect comparators. Basically exactly the same.

Sweden didn't lock down. Everyone else did. Ten times more people died in Sweden. End of story.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by galaxyLogic on Sunday August 22, 2021 @08:43PM (#28271167)
Thank you for pointing that out: 10x. An order of magnitude difference in deaths.

Plus, it just makes common-sense that if people cannot meet other people, that prevents the spread of the disease. No?

That makes common sense, and then we see 10x difference in deaths. The Occam's razor explanation for the reason of 10x bigger death rate then is .. lack of lockdown!

Anybody arguing otherwise seems suspect of political calculus, in my view.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by mikem170 on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:44AM (#28272399)
That would make sense, except for the countries that did lock down and did worse. It would help a lot to have a satisfactory explanation for that, too. Geography by itself is not enough to eliminate the doubt sown by that contradiction.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by thebruce87m on Monday August 23, 2021 @05:49PM (#28282422)
Timing.

I sat in the UK for weeks looking at what was happening in Italy and wondering why we weren’t doing anything at all.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by mikem170 on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @10:28AM (#28289305)
Yeah, the lockdowns in the UK were interesting, particularly were they would announce them ahead of time, giving everyone time to travel and/or bar hop.

I also thought it was interesting that the delta wave seemed to disappear in the UK without the benefit of lockdowns. The same in India. The same in India. I've been wondering if these waves of infections come and go without much regard for typical lockdown measures (outside of full-on communist China and New Zealand lockdowns, which may not be practical in most other places).

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by galaxyLogic on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @07:48PM (#28296454)
It's not over till it's over.

"U.S. (Civid-19) deaths in the week ending Monday totaled 7,225. By comparison, about 5,400 Americans died in the Pearl Harbor and 9/11 attacks combined. "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/delta-driven-surge-in-us-e...

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by thebruce87m on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @01:18PM (#28291950)
I’m not sure that it is disappearing - in Scotland today we have the highest number of recorded cases since the pandemic began. Schools just returned last week too so that won’t help.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by breakfastduck on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @05:11PM (#28295061)
The number of cases has never been less relevant than when the majority of the country has been vaccinated.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by thebruce87m on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @05:37PM (#28295315)
It’s relevant to people who haven’t been vaccinated yet. I’m 37 and I’m only just passed the 2 weeks cool-off of my second jab.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by nickthemagicman on Sunday August 22, 2021 @10:51PM (#28271869)
Why limit the comparison to nordic countries?

We don't limit comparison of Italy to Mediterranean countries, or England to British Isle countries.

Sweden is a European country.

On a European scale Sweden was right in the middle of the pack in deaths per capita.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by evgen on Monday August 23, 2021 @02:24AM (#28272826)
Limiting it to immediate neighbors leaves you with comparisons which have similar environment, socio-economic status, and culture/lifestyle. When doing statistical analysis you first try to control for as many potential confounding variables as possible. By limiting the comparisons to like vs like on many different variables you end up being able to make stronger claims about the consequences of active choices.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by nickthemagicman on Monday August 23, 2021 @03:50AM (#28273268)
Sweden shares similar socio economic status and culture and lifestyle with other European countries I completely agree.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by native_samples on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:36AM (#28274059)
This analysis doesn't limit it to immediate neighbours. If it was doing that it'd need to include the Baltic states too and when you do that Sweden goes back to being average.

In reality this argument is a form of motivated reasoning. It boils down to, if you ignore all the countries that disprove the hypothesis behind lockdowns and take a tiny number that did better than Sweden, then search backwards for some justification as to why this cherry picking is legitimate, you get a 'neighbours hypothesis' that unfortunately has to ignore some of the neighbours.

It's just rationalizing by people who cannot accept that lockdowns failed, because if they accepted that they'd have to accept that academic expertise in general has failed. And not only failed. Failed in ways that were destructive and damaging.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by evgen on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:53AM (#28274985)
If you think that Poland, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania share the same socio-economic status, population distribution, and cultural/lifestyle factors as Sweden then I think you are the one who is engaging in motivated reasoning. The reason we keep looking at Sweden and comparing it to its neighbors is that they are a perfect example of the success of lockdowns in preventing high death rates at the start of Covid. Anyone who claims otherwise seems to be either delusional or deceptive.
Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by nickthemagicman on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:59AM (#28275045)
He's calling out the fact that you compare all countries to each other except in the case of Sweden.

People compare other countries to Australia and New Zealand and Singapore all the time to justify covid lockdowns and restrictions.

But in the case of Sweden a country that outright disproves effectiveness of covid restrictions you require the frame of reference to only be the specific neighboring countries to cherry pick to fit your narrative.

It's either monstrously nightmarishly disingenuous or completely boneheaded and clueless.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by nickthemagicman on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:56AM (#28275023)
They're fine with comparing countries all over the world with each other....

But when it comes to Sweden the one country that disproves their narrative it has to be just a neighboring countries.

It seems so disingenuous to me.