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Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:32PM (#28249690)
Since the deadliest virus mutations kill their hosts, weaker virus mutations can spread (without killing their hosts) more quickly.

US deaths peaked in January 2021, before Delta became prevalent in the US, before substantial vaccination, https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/#graph-...

US daily vaccines peaked in April 2021, https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/us-daily-covid-vaccine-do...

India (origin of Delta) deaths peaked in May 2021, when their vaccination rate was less than 5%, https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/#gra...

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by erokar on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:37PM (#28249749)
Delta-infected patients seem to be 1.8 times more likely to be hospitalised, compared to Alpha-infected patients [1]. Since the covid virus takes two weeks plus to kill its host and also spreads while the host is asymptomatic, there really isn't much selective pressure to make it less deadly. So far infectiousness and severity of disease has gone hand in hand with this virus.

1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-23/what-make...

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:42PM (#28249801)
> Early data from Scotland indicated that delta-infected Covid patients were 1.8 times more likely to be hospitalized than those with an alpha infection. Other U.K. data support the increased risk of hospitalization but do not provide clear evidence that delta patients experience more severe illness once in the hospital.

How do hospitals identify individual patients infected by Alpha, Delta or other variant?

Do they perform genetic sequencing of a virus sample from each patient, to determine what mutations are present? If they are doing statistical sampling, what percentage of patients are being sampled for variant identification?

It would helpful to have variant-specific numbers of cases and deaths added to national data, so that accurate graphs can be drawn for each variant. More granular data would support data analytics of local, variant-specific, policy interventions, to evaluate cause-effect on local health metrics.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by jryb on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:34PM (#28250407)
Last I checked the US was sequencing about 1% of patients. In the Houston Methodist hospital system, they sequenced the viral genomes of 56% of patients, which they estimate is about 4% of Covid cases in the Houston metropolitan area: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000294402...

Of course, there is a sampling bias there for variants that result in hospitalizations.

Variant-specific proportions can be found here: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?ACSTrackingID=USCD...

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by nradov on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:55PM (#28249954)
Generally hospitals don't test for specific variants. Instead they forward a sample subset of patient specimens to regional or national infectious disease centers which then perform genetic sequencing. That way we can monitor the spread and evolution of variants.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#monitoring-varaint...

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by jamespwilliams on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:57PM (#28249970)
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by cogman10 on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:02PM (#28250044)
Not every nation does this, mostly only the ones with socialized medicine are.

For nations like the US, we are measuring the variant by looking at sewage. It doesn't tell us anything about who ends up hospitalized, but it does give us a good indication of what the is the common variant in a community (and inferences are drawn from there).

The UK has been doing probably the most covid genome sequencing of any nation.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:09PM (#28250131)
Thanks, good to know. Would be interesting if the UK also measured variants via sewage, as a methodological comparison against their more expensive individual sequencing.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by mellavora on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:54PM (#28249937)
genetic sequencing is pretty cheap these days.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:00PM (#28250019)
Is it to the price level (e.g. under $1K) where an individual patient could pay a lab to sequence their own virus sample?

How about the cost of sequencing one drop of the vaccine vial they received, as a quality control sample of the distribution supply chain?

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by bhickey on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:59PM (#28250710)
> Is it to the price level (e.g. under $1K) where an individual patient could pay a lab to sequence their own virus sample?

Sure. It'll run under $50 in bulk. Less, but not that much less, if you're only interested in sequencing the spike.

> How about the cost of sequencing one drop of the vaccine vial they received, as a quality control sample of the distribution supply chain?

This isn't a useful quality check. A negative result implicates your field assay rather than manufacturing.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @04:03PM (#28250768)
Thanks for the pricing.

> This isn't a useful quality check. A negative result implicates your field assay rather than manufacturing.

What if there were multiple samples of the same lot number, collected in different geographical regions at different times?

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by tandem5000 on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:19PM (#28250243)
> 1.8

What's the confidence interval?

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by quarterdime on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:43PM (#28250539)
"Since the deadliest virus mutations kill their hosts, weaker virus mutations can spread (without killing their hosts) more quickly."

The problem with the SARS-COV2 virus is that infected individuals are infected before they're symptomatic, let alone dead. Thus there is no evolutionary pressure that would make this virus less lethal, as is the case for viruses that kill their hosts early in the course of infection.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @04:43PM (#28251180)
What are some good references on asymptomatic transmission?

Early 2020 reports of asymptomatic transmission from South Korea were later retracted. There was a contact tracing study of 10 million people in Wuhan which found no asymptomatic transmission.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by caddemon on Friday August 20, 2021 @06:27PM (#28252107)
Unfortunately I think the media has really mixed up the words "presymptomatic" and "asymptomatic". You're right there is little evidence that people who never develop symptoms can spread COVID. But it seems likely that COVID can be spread up to 48 hours before symptoms develop, which still presents roughly the same problem.

Here is a paper looking at viral shedding over time in COVID patients: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0869-5

I also anecdotally know a few different people who caught COVID from someone who felt fine at the time they interacted, so I'm quite confident it is possible, although I'm not sure I'd make a strong statement about the prevalence.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by quarterdime on Friday August 20, 2021 @07:32PM (#28252571)
I believe that "asymptomatic" refers to an infected individual who will never get symptoms. "Presymptomatic" means the individual has no symptoms, but will develop them later.

As far as presymptomatic transmission, this is a good case study from Germany: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/4/20-4576_article. A 59 case cluster in which little/no asymptomatic transmission was observed, but 75% of transmission was presymptomatic.

Another interesting paper, also out of Germany covering 400k individuals, 25k infections: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6551/eabi5273. I can't write a summary better than the one in the paper: The role that individuals with asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 have in transmission of the virus is not well understood. Jones et al. investigated viral load in patients, comparing those showing few, if any, symptoms with hospitalized cases. Approximately 400,000 individuals, mostly from Berlin, were tested from February 2020 to March 2021 and about 6% tested positive. Of the 25,381 positive subjects, about 8% showed very high viral loads. People became infectious within 2 days of infection, and in hospitalized individuals, about 4 days elapsed from the start of virus shedding to the time of peak viral load, which occurred 1 to 3 days before the onset of symptoms. Overall, viral load was highly variable, but was about 10-fold higher in persons infected with the B.1.1.7 variant. Children had slightly lower viral loads than adults, although this difference may not be clinically significant.

The second paper is a bit dense, but there is a great discussion at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4AR7qPxz_Q, with discussion of this paper beginning maybe 47:00. 1:14:08 beings a discussion about how a large number of cases might be caused by a small number of individuals. Interestingly, these individuals are not necessarily the same as those who go on to be seriously ill, hospitalized, or die.

In practice, the difference between presymptomatic and asymptomatic makes little difference. The key is that we have ample evidence that an infected person can infect others while they do not have symptoms.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @07:54PM (#28252709)
Very helpful, thanks!
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by FooHentai on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:05PM (#28250089)
There are some confounding factors to that though, I think? Infectivity post mortem (as seen with plague) and time lag between infectivity and symptoms appearing allowing for longer periods of asymptomatic transmission. Both variables that mean the spread of a mutation and it's lethality need not be linked.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:17PM (#28250205)
Mass distribution of non-sterilizing vaccines which reduce symptoms (via blood/serum antibodies) but don't prevent infection and transmission (lack of nasal/mucous antibodies) can increase spread of variants that would otherwise cause symptoms and self-isolation of the infected person.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by bhickey on Friday August 20, 2021 @04:08PM (#28250808)
This is not a credible concern.

Vaccination reduces the infection rate. Among vaccinated individuals who suffer breakthrough infection the time at peak viral load is significantly reduced.

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by walterbell on Friday August 20, 2021 @04:31PM (#28251050)
Could you recommend a good reference on the time interval for peak viral load in infected vaccinated people?

CDC recommends testing of vaccinated people, since they can be infected and the vaccine suppresses symptoms, so they won't know to self-isolate, https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210729/cdc-reverses-guidan... (July 29, 2021)

> Even if they’re not showing symptoms, fully vaccinated people should “get tested 3-5 days after exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 and wear a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days after exposure or until they receive a negative test result,” ... “Our updated guidance recommends vaccinated people get tested upon exposure regardless of symptoms,” CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, MD, told The New York Times

Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by redisman on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:34PM (#28249718)
Deaths are down because we vaccinated all the old people who were dying in the first waves
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by monocasa on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:52PM (#28250636)
Deaths are climbing again in the US and are expected to be above where they were the same time last year within a couple weeks.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by veemjeem on Friday August 20, 2021 @06:27PM (#28252111)
It's still lower than the peak of 3300 (7-day average) during the winter season, and that's when we had 250k cases daily. We're almost at 150k daily cases, but with only 1k daily deaths. At least based purely on numbers, the CFR is lower. The CFR is lower because most of the infections are happening in younger people.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by shreddit on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:36PM (#28249743)
Why would you vaccinate a dead person?
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by bregma on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:17PM (#28250203)
They're less likely to refuse on political grounds.
Re:The mutation that helps Delta spread by RC_ITR on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:41PM (#28249789)
We vaccinated all the old people, who were the population most at risk for death the first time.