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Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by s1artibartfast on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:13PM (#28247706)
I think there are a hundred and one ways that companies can handle labor incentives but I'd like to highlight one that is my personal favorite:

Institute some level of profit sharing. This gives workers skin in the game but there's much more flexible and responsive then simple wage hikes. It's also closer to cooperative voluntary collaboration

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by lowercased on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:23PM (#28247843)
Many years ago, I had a colleague (in tech - dev and some ops) in a company of around 70 people... I wasn't working there, we just would share our experiences regularly. He worked with... a lot of subpar folks - they seemed to be the majority on the tech side. It was 'established', and the lights were on, but... - example - someone spent weeks writing a 'data importer' to bring in data. The data importer took 24-26 hours to bring in, say... 5000 records. "OK, it works" - first production customer had 27000 records - which wasn't unusual at all for the industry. "Oh, is that going to be normal? We'll have to tell people it will take a week".

My colleague regaled me with this, and how he'd rewritten it after learning how slow it was. Got it down to, IIRC, probably 15 minutes - all data imported, cleaned, logged, etc. This was normal, basic SQL stuff - nothing fancy. It was regarded as black magic, and "this can't be right, you're missing something, etc" that went on for more weeks.

This was one of a dozen stories like this. BUT... the company was established, and with enough people "doing" stuff, they would still grow (if only by brute force and adding people).

I suggested "perhaps if people had more motivation to improve their skills - like... maybe some profit sharing?"

"THEY HAVE THAT ALREADY!" he laughed back. It caused a lot of friction between the 2-3 competent engineers and the ... ~10-12 others - because the competent ones all just looked at the 'profits' being wasted by the others on the team. And, FWIW, it wasn't a lot anyway. I think an average 'profit sharing' for most rank and file was perhaps... $2-$3k/year. Might have been more had they been able to execute faster and grow market share with faster turnaround time, but... even $5k 'bonus' - it's nice, but for someone already making $80k+, this isn't really going to move the needle enough to motivate people to get remarkably better at their jobs.

It may (and possibly) does work in some situations, but that was the most recent one I had some connection with. It seemed a de-motivator for the few competent people on the team.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by taneq on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:59PM (#28248364)
I think the phenomenon you're describing is a little tangential to motivation and to the profit sharing suggestion. Personal gain is a good motivator but it's far from sufficient motivation to proactively go and learn a new thing for most people.

In my experience, initiative in even its most short-sighted forms (such as 'encounter problem, see straightforward way to prevent problem from recurring, take action to implement this solution') is quite unusual. True 'long range' initiative, where someone spontaneously identifies desirable but as-yet unreached goals and invents and implements non-obvious plans to attain them, is incredibly rare. No matter how you try to incentivize it most people just don't work like that.

What companies need to do (IMHO) is to recognize this aptitude when it does show up, and give these individuals the freedom to implement their improvements. This will matter more to them than any normal amount of money.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by lowercased on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:10PM (#28249413)
"Personal gain is a good motivator but it's far from sufficient motivation to proactively go and learn a new thing for most people."

This was really sort of spread around the org. The PM in charge could have clarified up front "average workload is 30k records, and expected turnaround time is 4hr". The dev(s) involved could have recognized there was missing clarity, and asked. This is less about "you have to go learn SQL" specifically, and more just recognizing communication gaps in general, and working to address.

My colleague who implemented the "faster ingest" process was viewed by PM and others as interfering and threatening to others. He'd only been there 18 months, how could he possibly know better than DevX, who's been with the company 5 years, and knows the problem space so well??

With respect to the 'rare' part, it feels relatively natural to me, and to some others I know. It's at least partially the nature of doing 'problem solving' across multiple disciplines for decades. Having the political ability to get those 'long range' fixes/changes past the vetting of others, who will end up having some of their plans challenged, is the much harder part. But... I've not had a good fit in traditional/normal corporate orgs for many years either.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by 908B64B197 on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:20PM (#28250249)
> My colleague who implemented the "faster ingest" process was viewed by PM and others as interfering and threatening to others. He'd only been there 18 months, how could he possibly know better than DevX, who's been with the company 5 years, and knows the problem space so well??

Profit sharing won't achieve anything if you are bad at filtering bad hires.

The point of profit sharing/stock comp is to get a better pipeline of applicants. It's them up to the company to filter adequately (remember: everyone whose mother told them they were "good at computers" because they play videogames all day applied at Google). A company that doesn't do stock comp is not serious in my book.

"A players hire A players, B players hire C players. Do you get it?" [0]

[0] https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=How_to_Hire_Insa...

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by argggg on Friday August 20, 2021 @02:22PM (#28249571)
Profit sharing is especially tough at service level jobs. The truth is, most of the folks who do work at that level don't understand the long-term value of getting stock options/profit sharing bonuses/etc.

A friend of mine tried to implement profit sharing to reward employees and to stop theft at his restaurant. Basically paying out a monthly bonuses based on how well the restaurant did that month, but which would go down by the amount of theft.

Theft actually increased because no one really understood the bonus program (even though the bonuses would have paid more than the theft!)

I guess what I am saying, there are no easy answers and a lot of the most 'logical' incentives are only really incentivizing to a certain demographic.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by s1artibartfast on Friday August 20, 2021 @05:54PM (#28251841)
I think that is a bit of a different problem than lack of applicants. That said, I don't think service workers are too stupid to understand the concept of a monthly bonus up to $X. I wonder if something else was going on. Collective punishment for individual can hurt morale for sure. Was the total theft less than each individual's bonus.
Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by PragmaticPulp on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:23PM (#28247842)
I tend to agree, but in practice a lot of employees and media hate it.

Amazon caught a lot of bad press for their wages a while ago despite giving warehouse employees equity-based compensation. They got a lot of good press by ditching the stock-based comp and simply raising cash wages, because that’s what headlines wanted to see. The workers may have lost out in the process, but the wage number is higher now.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by ddingus on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:54PM (#28248311)
Given the turnover, and a vesting schedule, the net value to the workers probably increased.
Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by only_as_i_fall on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:52PM (#28248270)
You might have a point but it also strikes me as odd to give equity based comp to warehouse workers. Do warehouse workers actually have any way to improve the ability of Amazon to make profit besides simply working faster?
Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by dmoy on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:37PM (#28248050)
Did their warehouse equity-based compensation have the same 5/15/40/40 vesting schedule as the rest of the company?
Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by specialist on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:09PM (#28250128)
This is The Correct Answer™. Income, equity, benefits, perks, whatever works.

Concern trolls fussing about all the pitfalls ignore that no system is perfect, you can't satisfy everyone (clearly!), and any and all efforts to decrease today's ridiculous CEO-to-grunt compensation ratio are to be applauded.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by maerF0x0 on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:16PM (#28247752)
I usually agree, but the implementation can have crazy side effects -- Short term thinking being the most immediately obvious. Tips are a very similar program (they % off total sales), and a tip based system has been disastrous for food service workers.

even at my own $EMPLOYER there have been issues with the stock price variability such that people have a hard time knowing what their actual income is and if they're overspending/committing. ie it's very risky to take on a fixed monthly bill like a mortgage if your income is tied to something variable.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by CgmCxFN0mG on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:30PM (#28247964)
Well there are solutions out there already for this, a base pay of x but a variable pay tied to employee performance (whatever metric they use e.g. tables waited on etc.) and a variable component tied to the company performance (profit sharing), perhaps even add an element of how long the employee worked there into this.

Make the data about what multiplier of base pay you paid out in the company performance variable component in the past few years and the upper and lower bounds of employee performance variable component and one gets the idea of how much they can make for sure and how much more they can potentially make it all goes well.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by lotsofpulp on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:35PM (#28248030)
Min wage workers for hotels and restaurants other service sector employees have been in sufficient supply that those businesses have not had to consider that.

It might also be true that a lot of the products and services of those businesses simply are not valuable enough to be viable without extremely low labor costs.

Re:What happens when all of your co-workers quit? by s1artibartfast on Friday August 20, 2021 @01:57PM (#28249243)
Perhaps this is an opportunity. I could see a minimum wage exemption for employee owned businesses being viable