News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by Rd6n6 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @08:58PM (#28216589)
A 1 bedroom place where I live costs $1400-1600 (it’s an unusually expensive tourist town) and things are closing down once in a while because of worker shortages (Eg, lifeguard shortage was the most recent I saw). Where are these workers supposed to live? I know other places aren’t nearly this bad. I just can’t believe anyone is able to work in retail or food here
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by XorNot on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @09:06PM (#28216633)
This is hitting the nail dead center: the mock surprise at worker shortages is missing the fact that every metric pointed to this happening pre-COVID as well - the US a whole was in a march towards pricing all it's workers out of their homes at their current wages. COVID has just accelerated the trend.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by vvarren on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:01PM (#28217336)
Ding ding ding, we have the answer. I was in Lake Tahoe recently and my relatives there were saying how I should move there because there’s so many well paying jobs available… but the cheapest rent was like 1600!! This used to be an issue only in tourist towns but now that houses are priced based on how much they can make on Airbnb, versus the traditional model of how much a worker in the area could afford over 30 years, we’re absolutely screwed. Legislation needs to start with vacation rentals.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by DaiPlusPlus on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:29PM (#28217477)
> there’s so many well paying jobs

> “jobs”

Employment, and employees, are not fungible - why do people (and more importantly: the news-media and the people elected to direct the economy) continue to speak of it as though it is?

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by el_dev_hell on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:11AM (#28217961)
> Employment, and employees, are not fungible - why do people (and more importantly: the news-media and the people elected to direct the economy) continue to speak of it as though it is?

I've seen this mentioned a few times on HN. I find it a confusing concept.

My position is 100% fungible. I write code to solve problems. There are thousands of people that can write equivalent code to solve the same problems.

I'm legitimately interested: can you expand on how my position isn't fungible?

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by DaiPlusPlus on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:41AM (#28218074)
> My position is 100% fungible

It's fungible only when the entire set of available workers shares your competence (i.e. your skill-set, relevant experience, and business domain knowledge) - or - can be quickly trained to acquire such competence.

...and I'll wager that the vast majority (90%-ish?) of the working-age and almost-working-age population in your country is both unqualified to write software professionally and is not interested in spending 2-4 years of their life to study CS or SE to a level sufficient to do the work you currently do. Of the other 10% at least 9.95% of them won't have your business domain knowledge needed to do your job such that you make the right decisions early-on or slow down others by bringing them in for help, and so on.

----------------

What I was complaining about was when it's reported in the news, or ever really said by anyone, that "opening this new coal-mine in Greenhippieville, CA will create 5,000 jobs!" or that "the economy added 10,000 jobs this month" - because the "jobs" those numbers refer to could be anything without further qualification, and doing that will make the conversation too technical for a general audience.

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by himinlomax on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:36AM (#28220222)
> ...and I'll wager that the vast majority (90%-ish?) of the working-age and almost-working-age population in your country is both unqualified to write software professionally and is not interested in spending 2-4 years of their life to study CS or SE

You left out the most salient point here, most people are entirely unable to write software even if their life depended on it. Just like I doubt I'd be able to write a symphony in 4 years even with a ticking time bomb strapped to my skull.

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by railsgirls112 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:12AM (#28221127)
Eh, maybe at a senior dev 10x level. I'd wager that a large segment of the population is totally capable of writing relatively non complex code, given the training/resources that many software devs have (university, internships, online bootcamps, time for side projects). Just like I bet you could write a symphony in 4 years- It probably wouldn't be Mozart, but good enough to meet whatever time bomb requirements.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by datavirtue on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:10PM (#28224226)
I have never seen any non-complicated code in business. There are droves of people working overtime to complicate nearly every corner of software and systems to unmaintainable levels. The developers, the good ones, simply try to fulfill requirements and mitigate the mess the best they can in the time allowed while learning enough new material each day to scare anyone.

A developers' core skill is not getting overwhelmed after being blindsided by new shit from every angle on a constant basis.

We have 30% of out team just dealing with auto-reported vulnerabilities in our code base. No choice. Getting an "exception" takes an architect about a week for a vuln that has no material impact and which can't be mitigated with a simple library update. Tip of the ice berg.

This is at an excellent tech focused company (relatively great place to work).

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by himinlomax on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:23AM (#28222450)
Poor programmers are worse than no programmer for most if not all projects.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by XargonEnder on Friday August 20, 2021 @01:44PM (#28249062)
I agree with all of your facts about why engineers aren't fungible. However most jobs I've had management behaves as though they are fungible. For example I've seen companies fail to give raises needed to retain top talent and lose millions of dollars but they don't seem to be able to acknowledge that. They just act as though the replacement is just as good as the last one.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by himinlomax on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:34AM (#28220209)
> My position is 100% fungible. I write code to solve problems. There are thousands of people that can write equivalent code to solve the same problems.

Gold is fungible. You can mine gold anywhere in the world and it's worth the same.

The level of skill to be able to code effectively is not something a large proportion of the population has. People have scoffed at the idea that programming requires a high IQ (let's call it what it is), calling it elitist or something, but you don't expect any random joe to be able to be a professional illustrator, musician, juggler, diver, climber, writer or mathematician.

The real problem, has Jordan Peterson points out, is what will society do with people on the low end of the IQ curve, as more and more skills are required and unskilled labor is being eliminated by technology?

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:44AM (#28218281)
Vacation rentals are mostly a side effect of the government manipulating asset prices / interest rates - which is the broader issue.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by nicoburns on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:11AM (#28218744)
This is definitely evident in the UK: job shortages in parts of the country with low housing costs worker shortages in parts of th country with high housing costs.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:12AM (#28218752)
Wage should be calibrated according to local cost of living. If average rent is $1400, wages after taxes should be $4200 - $5600 a month (3x / 4x rent) minimum. A $15 / hour minimum wage at a reasonable 40 hours / week only gets you $2400 a month, not even considering taxes.

And keep in mind, if you get paid minimum wage, your employer is telling you they'd pay you less if they could.

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by Fernicia on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:14AM (#28219353)
Or maybe we can just keep building houses until a $2400 salary can afford them their own apartment.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by kwere on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:59AM (#28220434)
Land Is not a replicabile resource
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by jackson1442 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:30AM (#28220696)
Not necessarily houses then, we could build multifamily. The US sincerely needs condos/townhomes to reign the housing economy back in.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by mywittyname on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:32AM (#28221463)
Most of the US is not really land constrained. It's really only a very few desirable metros that really need to increase their density.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by goodcanadian on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:19AM (#28218463)
Reminds me of Wendy's in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii years ago. They were so desperate for workers they put application forms on the tray when you bought food. Unsurprisingly, they closed down not long after.
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by greedo on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:45PM (#28223800)
McDonalds was doing that back in the 80s...
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by JeremyNT on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:56PM (#28227667)
> A 1 bedroom place where I live costs $1400-1600 (it’s an unusually expensive tourist town) and things are closing down once in a while because of worker shortages (Eg, lifeguard shortage was the most recent I saw). Where are these workers supposed to live? I know other places aren’t nearly this bad. I just can’t believe anyone is able to work in retail or food here

This is the crux, because what's happening is that housing is highly inflationary (especially in desirable locations) and wages are failing to match inflation, so entry level workers are being pushed further out to the boonies. Why would they commute all the way into the city centers if they don't actually pay better?

An interesting side effect of all the rampant real estate speculation and bidding wars is that cities are becoming dramatically more expensive to live in than the exurbs. I feel like eventually this will result in a much higher cost of living across the board as employers need to account for this difference in their pay scales. The entry level / service industry jobs in these places with insane housing prices will need to pay much better to attract workers, thus making these already expensive-to-live places even more expensive.

Perhaps it will eventually create some kind of equilibrium where new towns can provide some of the same quality of life benefits at a fraction of the cost since their real estate isn't so astronomical.

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by gnarbarian on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:27AM (#28218018)
get a roommate.

roommates are a critical social developmental step in your life.

They teach you how to negotiate boundaries without a direct authority figure.

They teach you how to live in a common space with somebody else.

roommates teach you that you must be responsible for your actions which affect the other people who live with you.

roommates teach you the importance of financial responsibility because when the rent is due you both need to pay up.

You may be lazy You may not want to do the dishes, but you know if you take that messy ass plate and you just throw it in the sink it will become a mountain of dirty ass shit and you owe it to somebody else to do your part.

If both of you hold up your end of the bargain and perform 3 seconds of work to place that dish in the dishwasher it avoids this tragedy of the commons.

roommates teach you that self-discipline is critical for a tolerable society.

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by bawolff on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:36AM (#28218254)
? In a comparison between having a roommate and living alone, i think living alone is more responsibility. There's nobody to call you on your BS when you live alone, just yourself.

E.g. Forget to pay your share of the rent when you live with a roommate? Room-mate yells at you. When you live alone you get an eviction notice.

Self-discipline is about the self after all. If you need another person there to be disciplined, then you are clearly not self-disciplined.

(That said, nothing wrong with roommates, it often makes financial sense and some people like having them, i just dont see the connection to responsibility)

Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by 1experience on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:24AM (#28219126)
Re:Will the rich world’s worker deficit last? by alexgmcm on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:15AM (#28219081)
I mean, don't people learn that at University when they have to live with others? Or maybe if they are in their first job?

But when housing costs are such that you have people in their late 20's and early 30's still living with roommates it seems like a societal problem.