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Re:The case against crisis-mongering by Guthur on Saturday August 14, 2021 @09:48AM (#28180587)
Honestly it seems no one really understands what fascism actually is.

What fascism used to be was ultra nationalistic, non democratic, centralised control of people's lives and the economy for the greater good of the state. And I means these to the most extreme you can possibly take these ideas, that's fascism.

The word has no meaning when you throw it around against anyone with slightly conservative view points.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by planet-and-halo on Saturday August 14, 2021 @10:32AM (#28180952)
Orwell wrote this way back in the 1940s. He said by then the word "fascism" already meant "something we don't like," whereas "democracy" meant "a system we like."

EDIT: Figured I'd go pull the full quote.

---

When one critic writes, “The outstanding feature of Mr. X’s work is its living quality,” while another writes, “The immediately striking thing about Mr. X’s work is its peculiar deadness,” the reader accepts this as a simple difference of opinion. If words like black and white were involved, instead of the jargon words dead and living, he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way. Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable.” The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Pétain was a true patriot, The Soviet Press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by heavyset_go on Sunday August 15, 2021 @05:50PM (#28192859)
It's worth noting that Orwell had a lot to say about fascists, and took up arms against them in Catalonia.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by roenxi on Saturday August 14, 2021 @10:18AM (#28180839)
I'm not sure people care. The median pundit seems to have an unshakeable belief that they aren't going to bear the big-picture consequences for bringing back failed 1900s political ideologies.

Given the absolutely absurd number of real-world experiments run over the last 2,000 years the ultra-short-term view people have of political history is a bit silly. Eg, I don't even know what the whipping boy was before facism. Possibly Bonapartism. We've tried everything at least thrice by this point and it is clear most people don't want to learn from the past and aren't particularly interested in having a clear language to discuss politics with.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by DenisM on Saturday August 14, 2021 @05:55PM (#28184254)
> I don't even know what the whipping boy was before facism. Possibly Bonapartism

It depends on the time and place. The favorite boogeyman of the Bolsheviks were the bourgeoisie at first, followed by the Mensheviks (communists of slightly wrong persuasion), and then counterrevolutionaries. The boogeyman for the royal regimes of the 19th century Europe was the French revolution, anything not sufficiently orthodox was automatically suspect.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by FooBarBizBazz on Saturday August 14, 2021 @08:05PM (#28185045)
There's a throwaway line somewhere in Kenneth Clark's Civilization, where he says that railing against "tyranny" (sort of gesturing back to the Roman Republic) was the rhetorical go-to of the pre-Marxist revolutionary.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by atemerev on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:12AM (#28181259)
To learn what fascism is, I highly recommend reading the book of its founder: “The Doctrine of Fascism” by Mussolini. It is short, up to the point, and clearly defines the subject. Basically it is an ideology centered on subjugating the needs of an individual to the needs of the (national) government. “Strong nation through collective action”.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by Animats on Saturday August 14, 2021 @07:18PM (#28184755)
“Strong nation through collective action”.

Oh, like "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" - Kennedy.

Fascism goes beyond that. "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value." - Mussolini. The core concept is a single all-encompassing authority. Not just a dictatorship or ruling party, but no other centers of power at all. It's top down military organization of the non-military parts of society.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by tlogan on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:33AM (#28181427)
The word fascism lost its original meaning. Not it just means “nazi” - or something bad. Not that fascist were good but they were different kind of bad than nazis.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by lazyant on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:30PM (#28181925)
That describes pretty much every dictatorship or tyranny; from "right wing" ones to "communist" ones.

Words (like this one) can change their meaning in their popular use and that's fine but probably better to use better terms, especially with emotionally loaded ones.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by hmfrh on Saturday August 14, 2021 @10:36AM (#28180983)
> What fascism used to be was ultra nationalistic, non democratic, centralised control of people's lives and the economy for the greater good of the state. And I means these to the most extreme you can possibly take these ideas, that's fascism.

That's not entirely true.

As Umberto Eco says[1]:

> Eco grew up under Mussolini’s fascist regime, which “was certainly a dictatorship, but it was not totally totalitarian, not because of its mildness but rather because of the philosophical weakness of its ideology. Contrary to common opinion, fascism in Italy had no special philosophy.” It did, however, have style, “a way of dressing—far more influential, with its black shirts, than Armani, Benetton, or Versace would ever be.”

And he identifies 14 typical features of fascism:

> 1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”

> 2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”

> 3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

> 4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

> 5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”

> 6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”

> 7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”

> 8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”

> 9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”

> 10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”

> 11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”

> 12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”

> 13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”

> 14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

Many of which absolutely apply to the previous US presidency.

[1]: https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list...

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by Guthur on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:16AM (#28181290)
And some also apply to the current incumbent so I'm not really sure what we should draw from that.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by AstralStorm on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:25AM (#28181377)
You should recognize them as fascist adjacent, as they rightly are.

Most of the things on the list are actively bad in any political system. Half of them are inexcusable. A few are essentially descriptions of populism being acted upon, and a few are typical reactionary features.

For example, current Polish governing party fits: 1, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by spamizbad on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:29AM (#28181403)
The US is a democracy but it’s always been flirty with fascist elements. So it’s no surprise you can look at the American government, under any president, and see some fascistic elements at work.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by OrvalWintermute on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:05PM (#28181714)
We also support socialistic elements too.

In the Marxist sense, we are a synthesis . Our competition is most likely the Chinese Communists which have broadly adopted capitalism, but retain the oligarchic power structures at the top, and state control of enterprises. They represent a different synthesis

[dead]
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by zzyzxxz on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:02PM (#28181690)
It's more fair to compare Presidents with George Washington than with their predecessors. I can't imagine George Washington standing in front of a church holding a bible upside-down, or advocating that people ought to put cleaning fluids into their lungs.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by krapp on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:26PM (#28181892)
I see what you're trying to do, but be careful... while Trump may have cheated his employees (according to affidavits from the many lawsuits against him,) George Washington owned men as slaves.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by atemerev on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:18AM (#28181304)
It applies to many modern governments, which was exactly the author’s point.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by minikites on Saturday August 14, 2021 @11:35AM (#28181446)
What is your opinion on liberals being compared to Soviet and Chinese communists?
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by OrvalWintermute on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:00PM (#28181681)
are we talking about someone that believes in free speech, a free press, private property, the Rule of Law, opposes cancel-culture, believes in social policies, free elections, Separation of church & State, supports a progressive taxation, abhors violence as a way to change govt, and generally supports the constitution?

Or, are we talking about someone that believes in controlled/regulated speech, a controlled press, speech codes, reductions in private property, Law as a living construct, supports cancel-culture, thinks of the State as the Church, wants massive wealth redistribution, supports violence as a means to change govt, and does not support the constitution?

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by anigbrowl on Saturday August 14, 2021 @01:30PM (#28182421)
Ooh! 21 tropes in 2 sentences, that's very impressive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by leereeves on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:30PM (#28182901)
Actually 10 distinctions between "liberals" and "progressives", demonstrating that there are many criteria by which progressives are closer to communists than to liberals.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by namdnay on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:36PM (#28181979)
What wrong with “law as a living construct”? So only the bill of rights is valid and we should drop the other amendments?
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by somebodynew on Saturday August 14, 2021 @01:08PM (#28182237)
The eleventh amendment was a "bug fix" to the constitution. The original constitution had wording that accidentally allowed a citizen to file a suit against a state directly in the supreme court. Nobody in the government intended for this to be possible, but citizens began suing states and this conduct was upheld as constitutional.

At the time (1794), this was resolved by amending the constitution to make the desired change. If the same unintended wording had gone unnoticed until today, it is very likely that the supreme court would simply decide that the outcome as written was not desirable and throw out the suits.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by leereeves on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:33PM (#28182919)
Good example. Opposing "law as a living construct" doesn't mean the law shouldn't be amended or "we should drop the other amendments", it means the courts should follow the law as written (including amendments) and not redefine it as they choose.
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by namdnay on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:49PM (#28183037)
So a civil law system, rather than common law? Yeah they have that in France, it comes with its own issues (very slow to adapt - women only got the vote in the 60s, and the death penalty was still there until the 80s if I remember correctly)
Re:The case against crisis-mongering by leereeves on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:59PM (#28183100)
Not just in France. Most of Europe and the Americas use a civil law system, except for former British colonies.[1] This includes many nations that gave women the right to vote before the US did. And as for the death penalty, well, the US still has that.[2] So your examples haven't convinced me that civil law is slow to adapt.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#/media/File:Map_of_...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_Higgs

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by OrvalWintermute on Saturday August 14, 2021 @05:47PM (#28184196)
Not civil law vs common law, or, common law vs continental law [1]

In using the Constitution as a living document which can be interpreted by an activist judge, rather than the constitution as written [2], as passed by the states/amendment (originalism), interpreted by precedents from the collection of rulings, and caselaw.

[1] https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-essays/constitutional-la...

[2] https://www.swindlelaw.com/2017/10/originalism-living-consti...

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by luffapi on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:42PM (#28182032)
Both your personas are oddly constructed and not really representative of a political quadrant with state-individual empowerment on the vertical access and state backed private property on the horizontal.

Free speech, reduction of private property, dissolution of centralized state and wealth redistribution are all very classic bottom left (anarchist) principles for instance.

I would think anyone below the center line vertically (so anarchists to free market libertarians) would support what you call “cancel culture” since is a powerful form of direct action.

Re:The case against crisis-mongering by s7atic on Saturday August 14, 2021 @03:34PM (#28183370)
> I would think anyone below the center line vertically (so anarchists to free market libertarians) would support what you call “cancel culture” since is a powerful form of direct action.

No liberal is the other alike, but some would argue that privacy is a prerequisite of freedom. Calling out someone with intent of harm is a violation of their privacy and civil rights. This can have a chilling effect and promote homogeneous thought and expression, which is inconsistent with basic liberal values. Maybe a distinction between anarchism and liberalism is that the former want no regulation at all, while the latter embrace legislation that protect civil and human rights.