You already got COVID, so you're already stuck with whatever long-term side effects there are from COVID infection and probably have some immunity already, so I understand your desire to not take additional risk by getting the vaccine.

But for someone who has not yet had COVID, why would you suggest they should be uniquely concerned about hypothetical unknown long-term side effects from the vaccine, and not COVID itself?

I never suggested someone else should be uniquely concerned about the vaccine—be concerned about ALL the unknowns! Lol

That being said, my biggest problem is the proposed loss of agency. Let me be the master of my fate.

We can't be master of our fates, because if there is fate, it's determined. But we can decide to think and act as free persons nevertheless. We should ignore nonsensical / non-constitutional edicts and go on with our lives.

I wonder how much society has to tolerate that. You want to live in society? Well, sorry, that involves some loss of agency. You want to be the master? Then why is there an entitlement that the grocery store, etc, has to serve you?

I think you’re intentionally misinterpreting my statement.

Since we know the vaccine doesn’t prevent you from contracting or spreading the virus—it should not be mandated. Period. If this actually had to do with people’s safety, an argument COULD be made. But that’s not the case, so I think it’s preposterous that would should be forced to take a vaccine that’s solely for one’s “own good”.

As an aside, any group-think situation where people start being concerned about “my own safety” is not an experiment I’d like to be a part of.

The vaccination gives better protection against ending up in ICU, if we believe the literature. You want agency, do you also volunteer not to occupy an ICU bed (or even a hospital bed) in case you get Covid? Seems very selfish to demand the hospital service (at the end of the day, provided by others in society, e.g. others who went to medical school so we don't have to learn medicine/how to intubate ourselves) but refuse to contribute to protecting it (e.g. by making sure hospital beds are available for those who need it).

And how am I misinterpreting your comment?

These attempts at guilt-tripping of people with different opinions on society COVID strategy / personal health choices are disgusting and tiresome. You are not their doctor, and even doctor has to respect patients decision.

Vaccines are not the only possible way to behave responsibly, there are several strategies, let people find and follow their own. It's better even for the society, in case the vaccines turn out to not be the silver bullet the media and chinless spivs in governments told us (which it seems is getting more likely these days).

Isn't there a term when in an argument the other party pivots to "Your behavior is disgusting and tiresome!" instead of arguing the topic at hand?

We're just discussing "I want my agency!" vs "You still want to be a part of society right?" around here.

For someone who regards himself to have an independent streak, I'm interestingly agreeing quite a lot with the government full of "chinless spivs" about this. If they turn out to be wrong about the vaccine, well, there'll be hell to pay. Or maybe many of the vaccinated will think "I decided, I'll live with the consequences"?

Did you provide arguments for why "person being a part of society" means or implies they have to submit and receive the vaccine?

No. You claimed that not submitting to the vax agenda makes them a selfish person who refuses to contribute. Without any evidence.

You were talking down and guilt-tripping people who express concern, arguments or opinions in opposition to yours.

Being 25, excellent physical condition, having already gotten over COVID once with little more than a runny nose—absolutely. If you said all I had to do was agree in-writing, to not occupy an ICU bed in order to avoid having this vaccine forced upon me I’d do it in a heartbeat. But see that’s the kind of sensical thinking that our government can’t seem to comprehend, instead they’d rather just cut off people’s access to public transportation and restaurants.

I believe your comment about losing agency by wanting to be in society was a misinterpretation. My indication was clearly that agency == not taking the vaccine in this case. I realize that by participating in society I can’t run around with an AK-47 shooting whomever I please—while technically that IS a loss of agency that’s clear not the kind of agency I was talking about. I was talking about the benign agency to simply say “No” to the largest medical experiment in recent memory—literally modifying the way our DNA replicated as a vaccine delivery system.

There has always been inherent risk in the freedom to live as one chooses. But that I’ll happily assume that risk, and I’ll take full responsibility for the consequences of my choices.

But you're not worried about the side effects of COVID that will develop over 20+ years?

It's not like COVID is any safer or well-understood. This is a false dichotomy.

I never said I wasn’t worried about the side effects of getting COVID in 20 years.

I didn’t have a choice to get COVID, I DO have a choice to not get the vaccine.

Exactly, somehow this simple fact eludes many vaccinators on HN.

COVID doesn’t get to bypass all safety barriers in your body

It does, that's why it's making people sick and in many cases dead.

People are downvoting you because this reality is too scary for them to confront, so they’d rather plug their ears