The US is leaving the Afghan government without means to defend itself, after spending two decades there de facto in control.

So it's a huge mess, where they've been in control more or less, but they've failed to make the transition into a local civilian state into a stable one.

The offshoot of this is a wave of refugees that will engulf the neighboring countries, decreasing political stability in the Eurasian area.

This is a clear message to all governments - "Washington can no longer be trusted, it's a game of each for his own sovereignty now on".

I'm not saying US should be the guarantor of world piece, but this unmitigated disaster of immediate retreat is causing diminishing of political capital for Washington. It won't be considered as a dependable party from now on.

The situation is even more horrific from PR point of view since US helped to empower Taliban in 1980's to retaliate against Soviet forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

> So it's a huge mess, where they've been in control more or less, but they've failed to make the transition into a local civilian state into a stable one.

I think Afghanistan has failed itself. U.S. put a trillion dollars and 20 years into it and it collapsed within a month (at best). At some point you admit failure and move on.

I think the rest of your messaging is confusing. Washington can't be trusted, but we shouldn't be the guarantor of world peace? Should I stay or should I go?

What do you want us to do? Stay in Afghanistan forever? Where and when does it end?

"What do you want us to do? Stay in Afghanistan forever? Where and when does it end?"

Like I said, I don't want Washington to do anything. I'm a disinterested observer.

I can be a disinterested observer while saying something is an objective failure. It does not mean necessarily that there might have been any other outcome, or that I was rooting for some other particular policy.

> Stay in Afghanistan forever?

It's either that or don't go there in the first place. Afghanistan has been cynically used by world powers over and over again to get at each other and as a convenient battle field. Leaving it to the Taliban will only guarantee another chapter in that series.

I mean it seems like it's just returning back to 2000 before the U.S. and NATO allies invaded. The Taliban ruled then, and they're going to rule again in the future because after 20 years and over a trillion dollars it just didn't work.

And what good does staying do? If we stay we're bad, awful imperialists and playing global police. If we leave we're bad too for letting Afghanistan return to the year 2000. If you're damned either way might as well save money. Maybe the EU can step up and commit resources and money and prevent this outcome you're describing. Why does America have to do it?

I think most Americans hold this viewpoint too. If you don't like it, I think it might be beneficial to go back and look at the years of "America in Afghanistan bad" international press. No wonder Americans said "fuck it we're done".

Funny enough the more controversial war (Iraq) seems to have brought about the more successful long-term change. U.S. forces are effectively out and the Iraqi government is running Iraq. Would be great if the Iranians would stop meddling but is what it is.

No, this is much worse because now the Taliban will end up much more powerful than they ever were prior to 2000. This will have no end of consequences and all of them negative.

> No, this is much worse because now the Taliban will end up much more powerful than they ever were prior to 2000.

In what specific ways?

The populace has learned that the Taliban are the winners, when before they were just another contender, besides that they are now better armed and are able to claim victory over the United States which serves as a tremendous recruiting poster.

Well they did win. They beat the U.S. just as they beat others. We spent too much money and time. 20 years and a trillion dollars. Iraq was able to form a government. The Afghani people just didn’t have the ability to do it with our help (or we failed at helping enough). We lost. Time to go home.

>> Are they trying to make me think that leaving Afghanistan is bad for America?

No man, this is what's wrong with Americans who believe in Trump. "They" are not "trying to make" you "think" something. It's just the fucking news. Turn on France24 or Al Jazeera or BBC - you're not their audience. They're covering the fall of a new city in Afghanistan every day.

There is some psychosis among Americans who spend too much time online where you think every piece of news must be slanted bullshit trying to win an infowar on your brain. It's not. This is pure fucking cause and effect. America pulled out, which we wanted, and now the Taliban is going to massacre a lot of women and children, which America doesn't give a rat's ass about. That's the situation.

No one cares if they convince you or Joe Biden or America. This is just what's happening. For my 2 cents, I don't think we should have left before we eliminated the Taliban.

> No man, this is what's wrong with Americans who believe in Trump.

Don't want to do a back and forth here, but do want to make it clear I don't "believe" in any president. I certainly didn't vote for Trump in either election. He can be right about some things even if he's almost universally wrong on policies according to my own views.

> "They" are not "trying to make" you "think" something. It's just the fucking news. Turn on France24 or Al Jazeera or BBC - you're not their audience. They're covering the fall of a new city in Afghanistan every day.

But they're covering it with an opinion "America should do something", "this is bad", etc. Which is fine to have I guess, but that's the same spirit that got us in Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place. Which is the point of my comment.

I mean, I think they're covering it with the opinion of "why the fuck would you fight a 20 year war and just drop the ball completely now," which is fair, considering that when we invaded they were uniformly like "why the fuck is America invading." I want to strongly separate Iraq from Afghanistan in this, because there was absolutely no reason for us to invade Iraq or to promote the Arab Spring or any of the other absurd things we did post-9/11. These were actually all distractions from and drains upon the mission in Afghanistan. We have an obligation to prevent the Taliban from taking hold there again. And any renewal of their power directly impacts our security. We had no moral right to withdraw, and Biden did it as fast as he could just because it was popular. I understand why it was popular, but that doesn't make it right for us or the people who are trapped there. It makes us look weak and it destroys the hope that people around the world place in us. For better or worse, we are the only power capable of holding back the forces of chaos around the world, and that is where we put our footprint because these specific people, the Taliban aided and abetted an attack on our civilian population. We should never make peace with them, because they have no concept of peace. They will attack us at the first opportunity.

I predict within a couple months they will execute American hostages and we will have to return to Afghanistan. It may be something like Carter's self-immolation in Iran. If so it will only lead to a more isolationist right-wing regime under Trump or someone else in the US. Isolationism does not work. America is a global power and needs to act as one. Globalism is the future and it shouldn't be controlled by China and Russia while we retreat from it. I'm no neocon or fan of Bush-style pre-emptive strikes. But we're the only ones who have some accountability and the capacity to prevent genocide, and we should do it.

> But we're the only ones who have some accountability

Had. But after all the failures this has eroded quite a bit.

Agreed. But America is still an idea. Many other countries have massacred their indigenous population. Many other countries have enslaved people. Many other countries have fought unjust wars. There's a lot America has to be ashamed of.

And yet America is still a great idea. That's what gives us accountability. That's why we can't retreat from the world into isolationism.

[edit] Just to expand on this, I'm from the immigrant side of America, and the working class side. In other words, I'm not a rich white guy whose family sailed here on the Mayflower, and I'm not someone with "white privilege" or whatever. This is the place you go if you have something you want to build, make, say, do, create, or a freedom you wish to exercise that you cannot exercise in your home country. Now. A lot of old-school right wing Americans think they don't want more immigrants. But without immigrants, America is nothing. The force of change and justice and creative power in America, in my mind, has always been about immigration and the freedom it unleashes in people who were repressed elsewhere in the world. And that is why we have a responsibility to help people, like the people in Kabul right now, who are being crushed by horrific violent forces like the Taliban.

Simplified, there are several groups of people in the United States: immigrants, people that forgot they once were immigrants themselves that want to close the door on others now that they have theirs, people and their descendants that were brought there against their will and Native Americans.

All of these groups have their own idea of what America should stand for and their lack of agreement is materializing in a societal schism that I don't believe can be bridged under a single political system.

And yes, America has a responsibility to Afghanistan, but mostly because they are one of the major forces behind the current mess in the first place.