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Re:Apple’s Mistake by fossuser on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:22PM (#28121889)
Yeah - my read of this is Apple wants to increase their e2e adoption while still handling CSAM in a way that gets them an okay from the regulators.

Ben Thompson's suggested approach for them in this article is to just do the unencrypted iCloud model with normal CSAM reporting like FB does and make that the tradeoff.

Apple actually wants things to be more secure by encrypting everything e2e with this CSAM hash approach to still fulfill that obligation (and protect themselves from future regulatory requirements that are more broad).

Reasonable people can disagree on these approaches to policy, but it's not obvious that Apple's move here is strictly worse for end users - if they do make moves to e2e then it's arguably better for user privacy to do it the way they're doing it.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by feanaro on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:43PM (#28122106)
It's been said elsewhere, but it bears repeating: E2EE is useless if the ends are compromised.

Furthermore, since the end is compromised, it's no longer a true end. The true end is the user and a system compromised in this way doesn't offer any guarantees to the user.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by bigfudge on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:36PM (#28123172)
I don’t agree with apples approach. But it’s worth being clear that the hash scanning they propose doesn’t fundamentally break e2e, except for files which match the hash. Yes it might be possible to adversarially create collisions, but that is an edge case.

What is actually bad about their plan is the potential for scope creep and might wider scanning in the future. Your own, handwritten messages and personal photos can be secure even while this destroys many freedoms and lives.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by dpkonofa on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:31PM (#28123133)
Why are you assuming the end is compromised? What makes you say it is in the first place?
Re:Apple’s Mistake by creata on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:31PM (#28123981)
The "end" will happily send information to Apple such that under certain circumstances (that Apple and various organizations get to decide) low-resolution versions of the "end-to-end encrypted" messages can be obtained. That seems "compromised" by any reasonable definition.

Edit: thanks dpkonofa, I made the description vague in the hope that it's more correct.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by dpkonofa on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:36PM (#28124010)
That's not what happens. Read the white paper. The only thing sent is the hash and signature (which, at worst, essentially amounts to a thumbnail of CSAM). No part of the encrypted content is ever sent to Apple.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by creata on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:49PM (#28124087)
So Apple might end up with thumbnails of the "end-to-end encrypted" content I send, and you think that it counts as end-to-end encryption even if (a low-resolution version of) my messages can end up in a third party's hands. Did I get that right?
Re:Apple’s Mistake by noduerme on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:00PM (#28124762)
I'm really curious if the potential for the wrong files to be exfiltrated is going to force corporations and law firms to prohibit the use of iPhones and Macs for work.

Personally I've been dying for the next gen of M1 macs to come out. I also wonder if this tech has some magical way of getting around a hosts file and little snitch. If I can't gap my data from Apple it would raise ethical issues with my storing client secrets on the machine.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by dpkonofa on Monday August 09, 2021 @11:37PM (#28124926)
Yes. The only way they would get the signature and low-res version is if it’s already been identified as CSAM (with a 1-in-a-trillion chance of a false collision). If they’re not getting your content, it can still be E2E encrypted.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by chipotle_coyote on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:15AM (#28125628)
> with a 1-in-a-trillion chance of a false collision

I don't think that's exactly where the "one in a trillion" claim comes from. Rather, it's that a single matching hash isn't enough to trigger the reporting; there needs to be multiple matches, and when there are enough of them to cross an unspecified threshold, then the reporting is triggered. There's theoretically only a one in a trillion chance of that threshold being crossed without having actual CSAM matches.

If I understand the white paper correctly, this even goes a step farther than that; they can't decrypt the signatures of the images corresponding to the matched hashes until the threshold is passed, because those images form a kind of decryption key together.

On a technical level, I'm actually pretty impressed. They absolutely could set up E2E encryption and still implement this system, and it largely assuages my worries about false matches of innocent photos (with the extremely big caveat that a false match has a very high potential of ruining someone's life). As the linked article points out, though, the real privacy concern here comes from having this matching capability on-device at all, because once it's there, limiting the data set to just this one provided by NCMEC becomes a matter of company policy. If an agency of any government demands Apple add their data set, they can no longer say, "we can't do that without drastically compromising the way our devices and services work," because it will be public knowledge that this in fact how their devices and services work already.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by aorth on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:26AM (#28125677)
The 1-in-a-trillion claim was debunked, https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-On...:

> Facebook is one of the biggest social media services. Back in 2013, they were receiving 350 million pictures per day. However, Facebook hasn't released any more recent numbers, so I can only try to estimate. In 2020, FotoForensics received 931,466 pictures and submitted 523 reports to NCMEC; that's 0.056%. During the same year, Facebook submitted 20,307,216 reports to NCMEC. If we assume that Facebook is reporting at the same rate as me, then that means Facebook received about 36 billion pictures in 2020. At that rate, it would take them about 30 years to receive 1 trillion pictures.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by tearfang on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @12:20AM (#28125100)
//No part of the encrypted content is ever sent to Apple.// Except all the data before it is encrypted, if it matches the data Apple wants to see. And don't anyone dare say this is a backdoor. It just scans for arbitrary secret files a 3rd party is interested in, and sends out info whenever it finds something interesting. That is perfectly fine bc shiny Apple said so.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by dpkonofa on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:46AM (#28129501)
This is wrong. Apple never gets the contents of the file. Read the white paper.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by aborsy on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:33PM (#28122010)
Yeah, good cop, bad cop, game.

Bad cop: I want access to all your information.

Good cop: Oh, these guys are after you. Let me see if I can intervene for you. I can implement a selective limited search, that make these bureaucrats happy and at the same time will protect you. I am on your side, I hate them too. This is the best practical solution.