News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by nradov on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:06PM (#28078940)
I appreciate that Apple is trying to find technical means to reduce child porn. That's a more important problem to solve than optimizing ad click rates. But my concern is that once the tools for local image scanning exist, Apple will come under pressure from authoritarian regimes like China, Australia, and Saudi Arabia to also search for images associated with lesser crimes or even just criticism of the government. It's tough for a company to refuse. Either comply with the orders, or risk having your business shut down and your local employees punished.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by ogurechny on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:21PM (#28080027)
What makes you think that child porn is such an important problem, apart from rag articles on vague “Darknet”? Shouldn't all the phones get scanned for the evidence of tax evasion, a much more widespread crime? All those rich people dealing with offshore businesses have iPhones™, it's only natural to make Apple do their part as a honest member of society… I mean, honest corporation of society.

If you allow me to guesstimate wildly, most “child porn” these days, in a technical sense, is made by kids themselves having access to an internet-connected device with a camera. Sometimes it is extorted by despicable abusers, sometimes it is done for no one in particular, just for the perceived fame/popularity/likes on social services/etc. Big services have an army of moderating grunts to keep Victorian purity of blissfully ignorant common public intact, things are a bit different in poorer parts on the Net and on the Globe. Should we expect the naked selfie of a teenager sent to their significant other to automatically cause a police interrogation of the same teenager? What if the device is shared with older members of the family? Another man-made dystopia enabled by people who enjoy to express outrage over the racy stories in the media, and people who are too afraid to speak up.

In essence, Apple has introduced a software agent to signal whether you have files that belong the list someone provides. If I recall the scandal correctly, this is what Kaspersky allegedly (ab)used, and what other antivirus tools (including Microsoft's built-in and enabled-by-default Windows scanner that for some seemingly important reason nags all the time if uploading of files to Microsoft is disabled) surely enjoy offering to various agencies around the world.

I don't think you should worry about “China, Australia, and Saudi Arabia” so much, there's elephant in the room you don't like to notice.

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by option_greek on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:13PM (#28079065)
You are stating it in reverse. Think about the children is always an excuse to get started with the next big things (like all the other things that you mentioned). So its step 1 of a grand plan on the lines of 1984 (probably to get some more markets to open for them by cozying up to governments).
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by majormajor on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:16PM (#28079100)
> probably to get some more markets to open for them by cozying up to governments

Which markets are closed to Apple by its own government currently? North Korea?

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by Syonyk on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:19PM (#28079138)
China has certainly made threatening noises about wanting access to everything, and they're a huge Apple market.

Apple has bowed to them on iCloud server locations and access already.

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by erhk on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:08PM (#28079868)
China, the next billion users one
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by a1369209993 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:19PM (#28079137)
The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. -- Adolf Hitler
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by Hamuko on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:25PM (#28079244)
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by WindyLakeReturn on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:33PM (#28079345)
Do we know the true origin of the quote? The source you link links to another source and makes it sound like that was the origin, but the source it links to doesn't use the full quote and already is using it as a quote, so it makes me think the actual quote predates that usage. It may be the first time it was misattributed to Hitler, but is it actually the origin of the quote?
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by CharlesW on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:39PM (#28079425)
"This quotation is often cited as having come from Mein Kampf, the autobiography and political polemic written by Hitler during his stay in Landsberg prison, but no such passage appears in that work. In fact, this quotation appears to have been virtually non-existent until 2014, when it was used as the heading to Chapter 11 of Willfully Ignorant, a novel by Pat Miller set in Nazi-era Germany. (That book also mistakenly cited Mein Kampf as the source of the quotation.)"

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hitler-control-quote/

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by hapless on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:11PM (#28079033)
There is something like a 0% chance this program wasn't co-developed with representatives of the government entities you least want rifling through your data.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by dimmke on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:04PM (#28079809)
I find discussions around this kind of stuff frustrating because often times what's actually happening always gets muddled by the hysteria, even here on Hacker News.

From the link: "Before an image is stored in iCloud Photos..."

This leads me to believe that only data that is going to get uploaded to their servers is going to be scanned. If anyone has a different interpretation or thinks I'm wrong, feel free to reply.

It's my understanding that all cloud services do this type of scanning, when they are technically able to.

But all data on iCloud is encrypted by default, so Apple can't scan for this kind of material once it is on their servers. Doing it on device before it gets encrypted and uploaded is the only place they even could do a scan like this.

Additionally, they make it clear in the article that there has to be more than one hit (they don't say the actual number) which would mitigate risk of hash collision false positives.

If this type of scanning makes you uncomfortable, you can just not use their cloud services.

I do agree that this is still not a good direction to go, even with all the precautions they've taken. But I had to do some digging to figure out what was actually going on, the comments/commentary made it seem like Apple is now routinely scanning all your photos/videos if you have an iPhone.

Once the code is there to do local scanning, it might make it easier for a zero day exploit to do phone scanning and grab data it might not otherwise have access to or for governments to force Apple to conduct scans of content on a phone when they ask.

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by shawnz on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:16PM (#28079972)
iCloud isn't end-to-end encrypted and Apple is technically capable of accessing the data stored there. As I understand, they already do server-side scanning for abusive material.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by dimmke on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:25PM (#28080081)
I'm not an expert in how this works, but I am skeptical that Apple would do this if they had a way of scanning iCloud photos and videos on their servers.

They also confirmed it is only when the photos upload to iCloud: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/05/apple-csam-detection-di...

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by shawnz on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:05PM (#28080602)
A generous explanation would be that they intend to add end-to-end encryption to iCloud eventually, together with this new scanning technology as a "government backdoor". A less generous explanation would be that they intend to expand this scanning to non-iCloud media eventually.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by erhk on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:07PM (#28079854)
iCloud photos today. Anything which the state has issued a search warrant for tomorrow.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by dimmke on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:21PM (#28080025)
I agree- I think this is a bad decision on Apple's part. It really undercuts a lot of their statements about privacy by doing any kind of on device scanning of your content, even in such a narrow context.

I guess the point I am making is that as of now, this only applies if you're using their cloud services. I'm not sure if Apple would announce if they were compelled to use this functionality through a court order.

Re:Expanded Protections for Children by aaomidi on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:17PM (#28079116)
The US is one of the main countries that spies on their citizens. I do wonder if Apple developed this to keep FBI happy. The same way they stopped on E2EE cloud backups to keep the FBI happy.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by Zababa on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:49PM (#28082391)
I'm always a bit wary about child porn arguments. For example, the Australian police ran a child porn website for 11 months https://www.vg.no/spesial/2017/undercover-darkweb/?lang=en. A child protection agency spread pictures of child pornography http://saucenao.blogspot.com/2021/04/recent-events.html. At some point, I start to wonder about the intentions of the people behind these.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by erhk on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:05PM (#28079827)
This tool has nothing to do with child pornography. Youre reading the marketing paper.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by babyshake on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:23PM (#28079215)
They need to at least have a canary clause that can be tracked to determine if they had complied with any such requests.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by marcosdumay on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:34PM (#28079364)
bool is_the_canary_dead = is_the_feature_released;
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by AniseAbyss on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:09PM (#28079878)
You are right to worry. Once the tech is employed out in the field you literally cannot go back.
Re:Expanded Protections for Children by antpol on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:18PM (#28095382)
forget about authoritarian regimes committing genocide, think about the children sharing pepe memes with ok signs. There are lots of pitchforks ready to go, and some of them already work withing Apple campus who are writing design docs on how to make Apple ecosystem even more safe