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Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by F_J_H on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:15AM (#2799525)
From the article: This is a key point to understand: philosophy, as a discipline, does not provide answers.

Well, notwithstanding the fact that it certainly provides some answers, philosophy is more oriented towards learning how to come up with answers, and more importantly, learning how to recognize if the answer you’ve come up with is right or wrong. I have forgotten much of what my first year philosophy professor said, but one thing that has always stuck with me was his opinion that “If we didn’t have philosophers, we’d still be burning witches.”

That philosophy is useless because it in not practical is the same sort of thinking as expressed by reluctant students taking algebra and pre-calculus: Why do we need to know this stuff? It’s not like I will use it in everyday life. True, for the most part, many things you learn in a math course you will not need to live your everyday life. However, learning these things teaches you how to think, how to reason, and that answers can be derived by methodically applying known principles to discover the unknown. Athletes perform many exercises in the gym using motions and machines they will never encounter in their respective sport, but the point is of course these exercises help to make the body stronger and build endurance. The same principle applies to philosophy.

To me, the spirit of philosophy is asking “why” when everyone just accepts, much like the student in this anecdote:

One day when I was a junior medical student, a very important Boston surgeon visited the school and delivered a great treatise on a large number of patients who had undergone successful operations for vascular reconstruction. At the end of the lecture, a young student at the back of the room timidly asked, “Do you have any controls?” Well, the great surgeon drew himself up to his full height, hit the desk, and said, “Do you mean did I not operate on half of the patients?” The hall grew very quiet then. The voice at the back of the room very hesitantly replied, “Yes, that’s what I had in mind.” Then the visitor’s fist really came down as he thundered, “Of course not. That would have doomed half of them to their death.” God, it was quiet then, and one could scarcely hear the small voice ask, “Which half?” -Dr. E. E. Peacock, Jr

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by brudgers on Sunday July 24, 2011 @01:37PM (#2799852)
When philosophy starts coming up with answers, we start calling it something else, e.g. what we call "psychology" grew out of philosophy over time as modern theories of the mind evolved from Kant to James who was trained as a physician and exposured to the empirically grounded Pragmaticism of Peirce (who was himself a working scientist).
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by davesims on Sunday July 24, 2011 @06:21PM (#2800505)
That's one way of looking at it, and certainly the scientific community would like to think so -- as if Kant and James did a bit of theoretical work that the scientists fleshed out in practice.

But this is really quite naive, and when you look at the particulars, really one discipline has very little to do with the other. James certainly did lay the foundation for modern psychology, but to the extent that he did he was acting as a scientist, not a philosopher, and very little of James' actual philosophy survives self-consciously in the discipline today. How many psychologists do you know claim that the epistemological bedrock of their practice is rooted in a Jamesean (or Dewey-ian) pragmatism? How many psychological curriculums require a study of James' theory of belief? How much practical application do Kant's categories have in modern psychology, and if they did, would they hold up under serious philosophical scrutiny? The answers to these questions are: few if any, not many/none, not much, and no.

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by brudgers on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:01PM (#2801128)
One might make a case about James being a scientist, however that's the sort of after the fact revision which Kuhn describes in Structure of Scientific Revolution.

But there is no way to make that claim about Kant and Critique of Pure Reason. The logic underpinning such an argument - that Kant's view of the mind does not match popular current scientific theories and therefor does not constitute science - would also place Newton's Principia outside the realm of Physics.

To suppose that the thrust of Kant's categories do not underpin modern psychology one would have to be the most radical of behaviorists. Modern psychology readily accepts that a person's experience of the world is largely shaped by the features of their mind - e.g. reframing.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reframing]

As for what psychologists claim as their epistemological basis, I suspect that the rate at which psychologists would claim James as a predecessor is significantly greater than the rate at which planetary astronomers who would claim Giordano Bruno's work as their epistemological base.

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by davesims on Monday July 25, 2011 @09:18AM (#2802465)
"The logic underpinning such an argument - that Kant's view of the mind does not match popular current scientific theories and therefor does not constitute science - would also place Newton's Principia outside the realm of Physics."

That's an interesting parallel, but I think Newton/Kant is really apples/oranges (as it were). Kant's 'Copernican Revolution' notwithstanding, his <i>a priori</i> categories were highly speculative -- by definition -- and not really meant as a theoretical underpinning for a science of mind as much as an attempt to establish a reasonably defensible epistemology in the face of Hume's skepticism. Kant may have had hopes in a scientific direction, but in practice no scientist uses concrete, specific Kantian principles as a basis for research. Gestalt theory would be the closest attempt, but that's a pretty high-level appropriation. It had its day and retains some residual influence but certainly nothing on the order of Newton's fundamental laws in the world of physics.

But even if you consider Gestalt or some of the contemporary influence of phenomenology in certain psychological circles (and they are limited), the philosophical problems with Kant or James remain: Neither James' nor Kant's answers to Hume fully protect one from skepticism or solipsism. Husserl and his inheritors in the Phenomenological/Continental tradition fared better there, and certainly Husserl's entire endeavor was focused on Science and its epistemological problems -- but very little of the scientific community has done the difficult work of understanding Husserl. Kuhn/Popper/Lakatos it seems are much easier to digest.

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by wvoq on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:24PM (#2801187)
Perhaps a better example here is the work of the empirical psychologists Fechner, Weber, Helmholtz, Wundt &c., respectively influenced by and reacting to Mach and Kant.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by sp332 on Sunday July 24, 2011 @01:28PM (#2799827)
There was an article posted a while back that illustrated this perfectly: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2443316 The article asks: Is Sugar Toxic? Some readers complained that the article doesn't answer the question, but they missed the point. The author spent a lot of time and effort doing research and interviews and putting together information to make a better question. The author just asks a question really, really well.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by tel on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:43AM (#2799576)
I don't mean to flame, but in the light and sense of that quotation, weren't controls invented by scientists and refined by statisticians both concerned with effective experimental design? There weren't philosophers involved until way later.

I find there's some important common ground between science and epistemology that can be talked about, though practicing scientists, in practice, never need to tread there.

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by jackfoxy on Sunday July 24, 2011 @12:11PM (#2799649)
One can argue philosophers, or a philosopher, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bacon, developed the scientific method. Bacon and Galileo were contemporaries. I don’t know if either influenced the other at all. Maybe they each independently discovered modern science.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by davesims on Sunday July 24, 2011 @06:27PM (#2800524)
Galileo was a first-rate philosopher of science as well as a scientist. He was a contemporary and co-belligerent with Bacon in laying the foundation of modern science. His role as a serious philosopher is often overlooked.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by JonnieCache on Sunday July 24, 2011 @03:02PM (#2800057)
Science evolved directly out of philosophy. Before science was called science, it was referred to as "natural philosophy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosophy

Principia Mathematica's full title is Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by joeyespo on Sunday July 24, 2011 @12:12PM (#2799651)
Wow, very well said. Really liked Dr. Peacock's story. I have to ask though, in his account and to further prove the reason for questioning, did the vascular reconstructions actually end poorly or was it a success?
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by kmm on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:30AM (#2799549)
I don't understand, what question does philosophy conclusively answer?
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by mikeryan on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:48AM (#2799588)
Philosophy doesn't answer the question, it teaches you which questions to ask.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by kapy on Sunday July 24, 2011 @01:16PM (#2799793)
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -Picasso

First time I saw that quotation, I thought it showed an amusing lack of understanding. Now I see the point; we need to know what questions need asking before we can begin to build anything of value in response.

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by huherto on Monday July 25, 2011 @10:32AM (#2802747)
It is so ambiguous that it each person can interpret it in a different way and it looks so deep and thoughtful. Coming from Picasso I would imagine he may have been thinking "...They can only give you answers, but no create beautiful things"
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by pjscott on Sunday July 24, 2011 @02:18PM (#2799953)
Question: "Which questions should we ask?"

Does philosophy answer this question? Or perhaps questions of the form "What questions should we ask in circumstances [FILL IN THE BLANK]?"

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by kirubakaran on Sunday July 24, 2011 @11:47AM (#2799584)
"Do we need philosophers?"
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by ff00 on Monday July 25, 2011 @06:57AM (#2802138)
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by vacri on Sunday July 24, 2011 @06:29PM (#2800527)
Re: the Peacock story. The student has missed some of the particular issues concerning highly specialist medical research. Frequently done with n<20 (due to lack of realistic subjects) and heavily invested in an ethical framework, it is common for medical research in specialist areas to be conducted in the form of case studies. Controls in these cases aren't "people that weren't treated" but "responses prior to treatment" - the student asking the question has a simplistic grasp of the peculiar issues surrounding medical research.

Remember that science is about rigorously reporting what is observed. It is possible to do good science without having to slavishly demand a control group - for example, where is the control group or the null hypothesis in the field of taxonomy?

The student in the anecdote does ask 'why' and I'm all for that, but I would have preferred the anecdote to answer his question rather than just leave it as a joke.

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by ristretto on Sunday July 24, 2011 @04:05PM (#2800207)
I am often disapponted by the inadequacy of modern philosophy of mind to follow recent advances in neuroscience and the brain sciences in general. Many of them have inadequate knowledge of the fields or outright dismiss verified results in order to advance obscure entities such as "qualia", or to promote a dualistic view of the world. Some of them also like to use quantum mechanics as "correlates of consciousness", just because quantum mechanics is hard to understand, or they propose that "consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe". Such things remind more of new-age mumbo-jumbo rather than serious thinking. Generally, their role in the field has not been very constructive, and most neuroscientists quietly ignore them taking a physicalist approach.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by davesims on Sunday July 24, 2011 @06:25PM (#2800518)
This attitude towards philosophy -- 'quietly ignore' -- has been the status quo in basically every discipline since the turn of the twentieth century. It certainly isn't unique to neuroscience.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by omarchowdhury on Monday July 25, 2011 @08:29AM (#2802322)
Consciousness sure is a fundamental property of your universe.
Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by ristretto on Monday July 25, 2011 @09:11AM (#2802439)
The problem is some philosophers go so far as to suggest that consciousness is a fundamental property of the physical world that is only "detected" by brains, or that consciousness is in principle unexplainable. Imho, that's just rubbish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Re:First, Let's Shoot All the Philosophers by omarchowdhury on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @11:38AM (#2807814)
It definitely is rubbish if you are grounded in physicalism.