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Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by neartheplain on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:40PM (#27990680)
Heinlein wrote a book in favor of polyamory ("Stranger in a Strange Land") and was strongly opposed to religion and theology [0]. I doubt he'd be at home with today's evangelical Christians.

For what it's worth, Soviet intelligence did infiltrate large parts of American society during the Cold War [1]. This historical fact is often obscured by accounts of McCarthyism and the Red Scare. While McCarthy was a liar and an alcoholic with little to no knowledge of actual Soviet spy networks, the networks did in fact exist.

[0] https://www.azquotes.com/author/6509-Robert_A_Heinlein/tag/r...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_espionage_in_the_United...

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by GeekyBear on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:53PM (#27992619)
> Heinlein wrote a book in favor of polyamory

Heinlein has explicitly said that Stranger in a Strange Land was not an effort to convince people to live in any particular way.

>“I was not giving answers. I was trying to shake the reader loose from some preconceptions and induce him to think for himself, along new and fresh lines. In consequence, each reader gets something different out of that book because he himself supplies the answers... It is an invitation to think -- not to believe.”

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/97/09/28/l...

Advocating that people should be willing to reconsider their deeply held cultural beliefs was a major theme in Heinlein's later works.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by flyingfences on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @07:37PM (#27991093)
> Heinlein wrote a book in favor of polyamory ("Stranger in a Strange Land")

See also: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @07:58PM (#27991239)
Also Friday. And Time Enough For Love.
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:32PM (#27991443)
Or like most of his later (non-children) books. Dude was really into poly stuff. Although honestly when reading his books, they never really seemed like equal partnerships.

That said, i've only read a few of his more famous novels.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by grogenaut on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:30PM (#27992496)
Read "To sail beyond the sunset" (iirc) Poly AND Incest mixed with infinite lifetimes, there were some things going on in that book...
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by technofiend on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:22PM (#27992108)
And Number of the Beast.
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:45PM (#27992576)
> For what it's worth, Soviet intelligence did infiltrate large parts of American society during the Cold War [1]

Every zealous over-reaction is typically grounded in some small truth. If it was totally separate from reality it would be much easier to fight; the kernel of truth is what makes extremism dangerous.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by jaten on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @05:53PM (#27990235)
Indeed. Although he would have abhorred their anti-science tactics. And he wrote extensively about the dangers of religious idiocy.
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:03PM (#27991272)
While Heinlein was no friend of the contemporary Left, he was very much not of a type with the modern pro-Trump types.
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by pyuser583 on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:21PM (#27991369)
Heineken was very much a product of the 1950s: pro-science, pro-military, pro-patriotism, socially conservative (but open to change).

He’s very much a produce a very different time, and that’s what makes him so interestin.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:34PM (#27991457)
Stranger in a strange land is socially conservative?? (and i don't just mean the pro-poly parts - that book was generally very influential to the hippie movement)

Like there's a lot i disagree with about the views expressed in his novels, but social conservatism is not something i would accuse him of.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by pyuser583 on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:29AM (#27993085)
I haven’t got around to Stranger in a Strange Land - which is weird because that’s his most populist book.

I’m thinking of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It had group marriages, but the marriage practices were ordained by custom and tradition. Not 20th century custom and tradition, but custom and tradition none the less.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Thursday July 29, 2021 @02:52AM (#27993613)
I think the moon is a harsh mistress is also the one that has the scene where the female lead wants to help on the farm, but her boobs are too "distracting" to the men folk, so she goes back to the kitchen instead. (Its been a while, i might be misrepresenting it)

Which stood out to me as first and foremost being shockingly mysogynistic, but also i guess is pretty strongly pro traditional gender roles.

At the same time though, the female lead is a political agitator/rebel, which is quite far removed from what i would consider traditional gender roles.

In any case though, i think when people talk about someone being socially conservative, they mean more in the context of contemporary practise. Like moon is harsh mistress may have practises deemed "traditional" in universe to the characters, but as a work, its setup as a commentary on contemporary norms, so its still arguing for change as a work, even if its not doing so explicitly in the text by the characters.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by GeekyBear on Thursday July 29, 2021 @10:04AM (#27996677)
> I think the moon is a harsh mistress is also the one that has the scene where the female lead wants to help on the farm, but her boobs are too "distracting" to the men folk, so she goes back to the kitchen instead. (Its been a while, i might be misrepresenting it)

There is no such scene in that book.

In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, any man who laid a finger on a woman uninvited would find himself on the wrong side of an airlock without a suit.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:32PM (#28003181)
I found the scene (pg 74 beginning of ch 10)

> She was gorgeous. When she undulated down a corridor, boys followed in swarms.

> She started to learn farming from Greg but Mum put stop to that. While she was big and smart and willing, our farm is mostly a male operation--and Greg and Hans were not only male members of our family distracted; she cost more farming man-hours than her industry equaled. So Wyoh went back to housework, then Sidris took her into beauty shop as helper.

Its not precisely as i remember it, but i think its still strongly suggestive that some things are "woman's work"

> In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, any man who laid a finger on a woman uninvited would find himself on the wrong side of an airlock without a suit.

I didn't mean distracting in the sense she was going to be sexually assualted, but on that score, despite what the characters claim in the book, the society depicted seems to have a very questionable definition of what consent means and ignores issues of coercion.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by GeekyBear on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:59PM (#28003328)
> the society depicted seems to have a very questionable definition of what consent means and ignores issues of coercion.

Sorry, but you seem to have very little notion of Heinlein's works, except for a burning desire to be offended by them, despite your unfamiliarity.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Thursday July 29, 2021 @09:27PM (#28003474)
What makes you think i'm offended by it? Being unconvinced by the sexual politics of the novel's world and being offended are very different things. I read and enjoy many things i'm unconvinced by. Life would be really boring if i agreed with every idea i ever read. And well he's certainly not my favourite author i have enjoyed many of his novels and many of them contain interesting ideas.

> despite your unfamiliarity

You literally just told me a specific scene didn't exist, despite the fact it clearly does as evidenced by me finding it again and quoting it at you. Perhaps i'm not the one who needs to re-read this novel.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by aeturnum on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:40PM (#27991866)
I think it would be more accurate to say he believed in traditional gender roles quite strongly, but very little in the societal institutions of the 1950s. Some ideas he promotes in his writing: polyamory, group marriage, distrust of centralized authority.
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by bawolff on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:50PM (#27992602)
> traditional gender roles

I don't think so - yes he has this weird trope where most of his female characters after meeting the main male char want to settle down and become a home maker for unclear reasons, but prior to that point in the book typically the female characters are very independent and competent in roles that are not traditional gender roles.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:02PM (#27991615)
> socially conservative

Not in any stereotypical sense. Pigeonholes—whether of the 1950s or today—don’t capture him well.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday July 30, 2021 @05:42AM (#28006204)
Grolsch!
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by mr_toad on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:15PM (#27990454)
If you read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress his views come across as more libertarian and individualist than conservative. Ditto for Job.

I never saw much in the way of social conservatism in his writing (the religious right would probably be horrified by some of his work), but he was clearly opposed to collectivism.

Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by GeekyBear on Thursday July 29, 2021 @10:08AM (#27996722)
>the religious right would probably be horrified by some of his work

You can drop the probably.

Stranger in a Strange Land explicitly points out things like the Christian ritual of communion being ritualized cannibalism, for example.

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Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by GavinMcG on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:26PM (#27990555)
You seem to be trying to say something, but you left out whatever you're trying to say.
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by imwillofficial on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:33PM (#27990614)
Wow, He was right. I wonder what other things He was right about?
Re:In the Strange Land of Robert Heinlein (1984) by seniorivn on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:01PM (#27990318)
how does it feel to live in a one dimensional world?