Pay people that have a skillset to do a job. But note that, for most orgs, the job _isn't_ "Do a job and be a dick about it", which is what we've been talking about. Being successful in a role means working with others for a common goal. That's literally what companies are (or, I should say, were meant to be).
Remember many extremely gifted athletes never make into a top collage team let alone the NBA etc. Similarly someone can be unusually intelligent and well educated, but that alone isn’t enough. Many people talk a good game, but being the best isn’t about having a large ego it’s about actually solving problems and improving things.
I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter?
> In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too.
Spoken like a person that has never even spent a moment of their life around a tradesperson. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of legitimized apprenticeship. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of certification process. Certified solutions to common problems. When necessary, permits, approvals, etc.
Software is nothing like that. "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots (note: not specific to "hardcore nerds").
I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else.
The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them.
Yep, this is a very deeply ingrained part of trades. Apprenticeship is a legitimate portion of one's career, and as such people further along usually have an appreciation for apprentices and apprenticeship. I've never met a legitimate (meaning, person that was trained appropriately and continued to work in their profession) tradesperson that kept secrets.
> The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them.
Without getting hyper-political, I fear this is the same problem as the "incel" topic of late. Getting rejected and then doubling down on a persona, rather than introspecting on to how or why a portion of that rejection was warranted, I think causes huge huge problems. I think the "hardcore nerd" persona is similar, as "hardcore nerds" usually don't make it very far. If you go through FAANG companies, you won't find a ton of people that fit the bill. Maybe some kinda-weirdos, but the higher up you go the more comfortable people are going to be educating and communicating (except maybe Amazon). Do you think it's valuable, when shit's super important and hard to do, to condescend to those around you? To pad your ego? I don't really think so.
You aren't hiring the right ones!
And frankly I wish software engineering had a credible certification body and apprenticeship system. We are in dire need of one! At least then I could have a lot more confidence when whoever walks through the door looking for work.
Yes hardcore nerds make messes but they also build and run some of the most beautiful code that ever existed. Not to say that normal folks can't, but you can't paint hardcore nerds as all bad -- even with me as an example, because I have a bone to pick with tech and attitudes like yours and I'm not afraid to express it strongly.
So is your argument that it's not just "hardcore nerds" capable of successfully building the systems in this thread? Because that's been my entire point.
> And frankly I wish software engineering had a credible certification body and apprenticeship system. We are in dire need of one! At least then I could have a lot more confidence when whoever walks through the door looking for work.
Here here.
> Yes hardcore nerds make messes but they also build and run some of the most beautiful code that ever existed.
The same can be true of those that would never identify as a "hardcore nerd". Almost as though the way one carries themselves is unrelated to their ability.
> Not to say that normal folks can't, but you can't paint hardcore nerds as all bad --
I paint "hardcore nerds" that condescend to people they call "muggles" as all bad, because 80% of getting things done is working with other people, and that behavior explicitly calls out an ability to work productively with others.
> even with me as an example, because I have a bone to pick with tech and attitudes like yours and I'm not afraid to express it strongly.
The persona you carry around is a great way to have all of your points dismissed indiscriminately. Expressing yourself strongly is great! Being an asshole, less so.
My point is that we are not closed to outsiders. Anyone can become a 'hardcore nerd', but the essence of meritocracy is merit, but there just aren't a lot of shortcuts there. If you're willing to put in the time to learn the mastery so you can step with the elite, then welcome. Otherwise, GTFO and stop trying to take our jobs.
'Elitism', 'gatekeeping'... all that, just sounds like sour grapes to me. Those folks can come back and try again after they've leveled up more. Otherwise, they can go back to whatever else it is they do.
> I paint "hardcore nerds" that condescend to people they call "muggles" as all bad, because 80% of getting things done is working with other people, and that behavior explicitly calls out an ability to work productively with others.
And I paint people that look down at nerds as bad. And "getting things done" used to require a hell of a lot less interpersonal action, but nowadays skillsets and business seem to trend towards codependency, not independence. Part of my issues with tech today.
> The persona you carry around is a great way to have all of your points dismissed indiscriminately. Expressing yourself strongly is great! Being an asshole, less so.
I swear to god I am sick and tired of you folks talking down to me about this stuff like you're better. You are not the first and certainly not the last. Allow me to be an elitist asshole, my message has clearly resonated with you (after all you did say you were walking away from this thread like 3 or 4 replies ago) so I'm not entirely sure what point you are getting at! Bad press is still press, as it were.
It's a shame that society has turned so hostile to the specialized operators of the world. Do you think the same thing of the Marines, who straight-up advertise that they won't allow just anybody? What about doctors? Hell if I was a plumber, or an electrician, or an auto repair guy I would want to make damn sure that someone else trying to enter my space and potentially compete with me is at the very least competent. And newcomers are great! Up until they try and reshape the world to be easier for them and worse for the incumbents.
The way I see it, the nerds built this shit and tech is our house. No matter how hard everyone else is trying to muscle in on it because tech is what's hot, we were here first and this is our territory. Not my fault every business idiot and their mother is throwing money at us because what we've built is so much better. Everyone is free to run a business however they see fit, but if you want to do it in or with tech you gotta pay the fee. Or not, if you're willing to build the mastery to work around that (but then guess what, now you're a nerd too!) It's the same way everything else works in this cursed world we're stuck in.
I stopped responding to a different thread in which your responses were less subtle trolling and more obvious, surface level trolling.
> I swear to god I am sick and tired of you folks talking down to me about this stuff like you're better. You are not the first and certainly not the last.
Intentionally "having an attitude" is met pretty poorly, pretty frequently I'd bet. Sounds like a delivery problem.
> The way I see it, the nerds built this shit and tech is our house.
Eh, not really? FAANG dominates tech now. FAANG employs most of the best technical minds outside of prestigious universities, like it or not.
"Look down on nerds"? Are we in high school? Nobody cares, dude.
> nowadays skillsets and business seem to trend towards codependency, not independence
They always did and always have, for thousands of years. It's not new.
> I swear to god I am sick and tired of you folks talking down to me about this stuff like you're better.
Not tearing off on a spittle-flecked, unhinged rant because somebody says that calling people "muggles" is unproductive and career-limiting and just kinda not a good way to operate would be a good start towards being better.
People will give back what you put in.
At the other end, Fortune 500 companies have unique needs which requirer significant expertise. At that level trying to outsource most stuff is perfectly reasonable, but they still need internal talent to avoid being ripped off or suffering major disasters.