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Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by smashah on Monday July 19, 2021 @11:45AM (#27883890)
Hopefully some will ask themselves why the "beacon of democracy" in the region is so ready and open to sell tools used almost solely to prevent the spread of true democracy to their neighbours? And then maybe we should all have a long hard think about how this translates to our own disgusting arms industries as a whole.
Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by nobodyCloak on Monday July 19, 2021 @11:58AM (#27884037)
A lot can be said about Israel, and this NSO stuff is extremely alarming. However, they also should get some credit as (one of?) the only countries in the Middle East where the laws don’t dictate that people be persecuted and/or killed for being homosexual.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by justsid on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:08PM (#27884194)
This is the bar we have? If you don’t murder your citizens for being gay you are a good guy and if not then you are bad?
Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by dragonwriter on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:07PM (#27884172)
Is there a distinct name for this form or relative of whataboutism where some supposed superiority over some other group on some axis irrelevant to the issue at hand is raised to derail criticism of a regime or other group’s abuses?
Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by JumpCrisscross on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:09PM (#27884199)
> some axis irrelevant to the issue at hand

Someone asked why Israel is considered a "beacon of democracy" in the region. That opens the conversation to why liberal democracies elevate it over the region's autocracies. The tolerance it shares with other liberal documents is germane.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by sudosysgen on Monday July 19, 2021 @01:21PM (#27885075)
There are straight up dictatorships that protect gay rights and democracies that don't. I don't see why it's a relevant axis.
Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by smashah on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:06PM (#27886741)
This tactic of dipping your true intentions in the aesthetics of progress is new and designed to trick people with a north-star cause to sympathize with the oppressor.

Unfortunately it only takes a few brain cycles for even the simplest of persons to realise that upholding apartheid because #girlpower is a sad stretch and a half.

It's relevant because the goal is to delegitimize criticism of apartheid and it's export of oppression to its neighbours.

There is no other point of relevance to my original comment and, in all honesty, it amounts to blatant propogandising. I'll just leave it at that.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by JumpCrisscross on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:21PM (#27886872)
> It's relevant because the goal is to delegitimize criticism of apartheid and it's export of oppression to its neighbours

It's equally reductive to ignore those progressive elements on account of certain elements of repression.

It doesn't make them less murderous. And it doesn't de-legitimize criticism. But reality doesn't offer perfect choices. Every government is flawed; most have redeeming values. We must balance the former against the latter. Armchair enthusiasts can imagine perfect options, but reality isn't that forgiving to decision makers.

Israel's unregulated spyware, bordering on terrorism, is an international issue. Its apartheid state is an international issue. But the freedoms it affords a large number of its citizens stands in sharp contrast to its neighbors. That, too, is of international interest. Acknowledging that is not a diversion and does not de-legitimize the criticism--it contextualists it.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by smashah on Monday July 19, 2021 @05:39PM (#27887552)
It is not equally reductive because one reduction serves to perpetuate oppression, apartheid and empowers regimes that are the architects of roadblocks to progress. And the other reduction aims to remove the obstacles to dismantling all the above.

The only way the contextualisation is relevent to the original comment is if there's some value in appending this racist myth that "if those Arabs had their say then women would be on leashes and gays would be made into smoothies on-sight". Ironically, the contextualisation is the status quo. The contextualisation is a direct result of, among other things, Israel and it's complicit export of cyber oppression weapons.

And before someone claims that this is separate from the state, just consider that the export license would not be granted for a sale which would be detrimental to Israel's interests as a state. The base deduction is that it's in the interest of the state to keep its neighbours citizens in-check and for Israel to be known worldwide to be an exporter of these exact tools.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by eloff on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:03PM (#27884123)
> Hopefully some will ask themselves why the "beacon of democracy" in the region is so ready and open to sell tools used almost solely to prevent the spread of true democracy.

I think you're conflating Israel the state with this Israeli company. AFAIK it has no ties to the state, and should no more be conflated with it than we should conflate McAfee or Facebook with the USA.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by manquer on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:08PM (#27884188)
Israeli courts have not allowed the case by amnesty international for suing the company saying that ministry of defense supervises the company so yes they are absolutely connected.
Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by eloff on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:42PM (#27884640)
That does sound closer to the the relationship between the state and say a defence contractor company.

That doesn't mean everything the company does is to support the objectives of the state, or approved by the state, but it does mean they're not unaffiliated either.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by manquer on Monday July 19, 2021 @12:48PM (#27884710)
Refusal to allow to sue on grounds that they are already regulated by the government ministry is basically saying their client list/operations is approved by the government ?
Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by eloff on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:02PM (#27886709)
It's basically just that the Israeli ministry of defence has to approve their sales because the software is classified as a weapon.

You can't conflate that with the company being an extension of the state though, as the GP did.

They're separate entities with separate objectives. A reasonable comparison would be to Lockheed Martin or Raytheon in the US.

Re:Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need no... by manquer on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:22PM (#27911645)
Regulation is to approve the sale to specific national governments. Not just a genetic you can sell or not permit.

Lockheed Martin is not going to sell to China right ? So saying say for example sales of weapops to Saudi Arabia used to kill civilians in Yemen is not supported by U.S. does not hold water. US also absolutely is responsible for any weapons being sold to countries with questionable government and human rights practices

In both cases they are complict and responsibile for failing to regulate adequately. Israel is additionally responsible as they are also shielding the company from being sued.