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Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by mc32 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @06:25PM (#27877236)
There was a report by a psychologist who said Native American mascots have a negative effect on children of native Americans.

This may or may not be the case or may be true in some specific circumstances (Redskins, for example) but may not be true for all, however, many high schools are changing their team names based on this one study/conclusion which was funded by a tribe. Which is fine, but usually when there is a conflict of interest one wants to have additional independent studies that come to a similar conclusion.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by pryce on Sunday July 18, 2021 @06:55PM (#27877422)
If you're referring to Fryberg, Markus, Oyserman & Stone 2008, do you think that schools deciding to change their team names/mascots might have something to do with far larger and more broad cultural trends over the last couple of decades rather than these schools decisions resting primarily on the robustness and applicability (or otherwise) of this one paper?
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by spoonjim on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:21PM (#27877972)
Teams didn't change their names because of that tribe-sponsored paper, they changed their names because white people wanted them to change.

In 2016, when the main momentum of this started to come out, 9 in 10 Native Americans did not find it offensive [1]. But white people had already decided it was offensive, and white people have much more cultural influence than Native Americans, so in being perceived by white people as offensive it became offensive, to the point that just a few years later, a majority of Native Americans found it offensive [2].

But at all times through this, including today, a higher percentage of white people find the Redskins name offensive than of Native Americans. The Redskins changed their name because of pressure from white people, not because of pressure from Native Americans. More than a little ironic that even in this, Native Americans were barely listened to, while white people's feelings were considered very important.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-...

[2] https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/02/04/native-mascots-survey/

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by mc32 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:32PM (#27878040)
This is even a worse reason to change names. Someone who has no stake in it at all then takes it open themselves to represent someone else as an aggrieved entity.

And, to be clear, I'm okay with presenting evidence one way or another, but I object to willy-nilly claims and crusades.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by tester34 on Monday July 19, 2021 @08:00AM (#27881615)
Wow, just like with GitHub master branch stuff
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by kbelder on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:31PM (#27885812)
And 'LatinX'
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by techrat on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:06PM (#27877894)
> many high schools are changing their team names based on this one study/conclusion which was funded by a tribe.

Let's rephrase this.

Many high schools are changing their team names because the study brought awareness to the generally ill-considered use of ethnic mascots.

The study may have been a catalyst, but the appropriation and the insensitivity to it was always a problem.

[dead]
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by techrat on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:34AM (#27879853)
Alright. I'll bite.

Why is it so important to you to continue to use caricature mascots that other people would find offensive over something benign like animals?

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by kortilla on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:18AM (#27902584)
That’s not the question at hand. I’m asking a specific question about who it’s been “problematic” for.

> Why is it so important to you to continue to use caricature mascots

I don’t give a shit about mascots at all. My complaint is specifically about people who concern troll on behalf of minorities that never asked for it (e.g. the Speedy Gonzales cancellation).

Whenever someone tells you something is “problematic” without giving concrete reasoning, they are likely just looking to be outraged and spread righteous indignation.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by techrat on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:11AM (#27903661)
You don't think indigenous people who are offended by caricatures of themselves being used as mascots is enough of a 'concrete reason(ing)'?

But I did ask you a question. I'll ask it again: Why is it more important to you to maintain racist mascots than it is to use something neutral in its place?

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by kortilla on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:42PM (#27936444)
> Why is it more important to you to maintain racist mascots than it is to use something neutral in its place?

Did you have trouble understanding my answer?

I don’t give a shit about mascots at all.

They can change it to anything they want and I couldn’t care less.

My problem is purely with the moral outrage coming from people who are not in the group they are purporting is offended.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by andrepd on Monday July 19, 2021 @07:20AM (#27881320)
inb4 dang shows up telling you not to feed the troll :)
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by kortilla on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:19AM (#27902590)
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by flamble on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:00AM (#27880259)
unlike you, who are clearly not morally outraged
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by kortilla on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:19AM (#27902592)
Do you know what moral outrage is?
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by SerLava on Monday July 19, 2021 @10:23AM (#27882930)
Damn, why can't I just have my Washington N-words, political correctness has gone too far
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by bigbillheck on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:45PM (#27877774)
> many high schools are changing their team names based on this one study/conclusion which was funded by a tribe.

I've been following the efforts to have team names changed for quite some time and have never heard of this paper, but have heard of sustained lobbying over decades from a variety of native organizations.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by jeromegv on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:09PM (#27877529)
So native Americans tribes have for the majority almost been wiped out and eradicated due to something not very far from genocide (or at the minimum, a very targeted policy of extermination)

And somehow you think that schools that have nothing to do with those people finally changing their very questionable names is due to a “conflict of interest of a psychologist”? Not because it was just racist?

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by throwadogabone on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:43PM (#27877759)
It could be argued that using that symbolism is more a form of respect than it is a form of racism. I don't think people who decided those names actively participated in the genocide, and objectively, they used those names and that symbolism as an ideal to look up to, they used it as a warrior symbol for their team.

It could also be argued that it dilutes the image/culture/history and probably a bunch more things by wrapping it up in american plastic. I wouldn't argue with that.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by crooked-v on Sunday July 18, 2021 @10:31PM (#27878674)
> It could be argued that using that symbolism is more a form of respect than it is a form of racism.

Broadly speaking, the symbolism being used is usually either an obvious caricature of the real thing (see: the former Washington Redskins), or uses cultural and religious elements that are at best kind of offensive in the context of being used as a sportsball logo (see: most uses of peace pipe or war bonnet imagery).

There are exceptions, but they're of the kind that generally come with either somebody actually doing the research or people of the given group actually participating locally.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by mc32 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @11:25PM (#27878958)
And yet... on the other hand, Indian Casino logos (on Indian land) commissioned by tribes.

As someone else mentioned most of the push against is not from American Indians/Native Americans but vicariously offended others.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by mc32 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:26PM (#27877652)
I don’t mind changing names if it’s based on evidence, not just because someone has some crusade.

Should Aztecas Stadium change their name? What about the MN Vikings, NY Yankees, TX Cowboys? Kaiser Chiefs of ZA, Ebusa dwarfs of ZA?

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by staticman2 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:01PM (#27877478)
In your example there's no downside to changing the name, though. It's a low stakes decision. In the book "Trust- a Very Short Introduction" the author argues if the situation is "low stakes" you should need a lower level of evidence to trust someone than high stakes. While I think the author might discuss it only in the context of human interactions, I imagine you could apply the paradigm to this situation.
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by DaiPlusPlus on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:06PM (#27877513)
> It's a low stakes decision

At least not until the reactionary media's outrage machine decides to make it their current hill to die on...

Also, this is America, where sports are taken far too seriously.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:06PM (#27877510)
> In your example there's no downside to changing the name, though.

Changing a name in response to a conflicted and un-valid paper is a downside in itself.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by staticman2 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:25PM (#27877645)
It didn't require a scientific paper to create the mascot but you seem to be arguing it requires a "good paper" that's been validated to rename it? You are demonstrating a status quo cognitive bias.
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by mc32 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:31PM (#27877680)
So if someone comes up with a paper that says the opposite (that using native American names) has a proven (by the a paid study) positive impact, since it's low stakes, we should go ahead and name teams after native American tribes?
Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by staticman2 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:45PM (#27877769)
I think we were talking about high school mascots not team names. Are those two scenarios equally low stakes?

In one you change the high school mascot from a native american cartoon to an animal or something. I'm assuming native americans were not consulted with the creation of the mascot to begin with.

In the other we change... what all the teams names? Is that a equivilent scenario?

To be honest I'm finding it hard to relate to someone would care enough about a high school mascot to even need a study at all. Low stakes B.S. But that's me.

Since this topic is probably of zero importance to anyone not native american who else is going to fund it, for that matter?

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @07:59PM (#27877847)
> I'm assuming native americans were not consulted with the creation of the mascot to begin with.

Seems like you are affirming the consequent and assuming it is harmful to native Americans.

You are ignoring the issue of the paper. If the decision is based on a scientific paper, but the paper is conflicted or unvalidated, that is harmful because of the misuse of the scientific paper.

If you want to change the mascot because of Native American’s preferences, that is a different matter.

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by staticman2 on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:08PM (#27877906)
Has anyone else studies this topic?

If not it's kind of a catch 22 for the tribe, isn't it? Nobody wants to fund research on the topic, so when they fund research on it it's presumed invalid because of bias?

Re:Word gap: When money’s tight, parents talk less to kids by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:37PM (#27878067)
This comment ignores the problem and seems to imply that we should accept a bad paper because the tribe is a victim of some kind.

How does that address the harm done by basing decisions on bad science?