News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by nixpulvis on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:43AM (#27854847)
[3] (from OP) directly contradicts this, though I am also very confused why real numbers are somehow unorderable, while the integers are not. https://jaydaigle.net/blog/what-is-the-axiom-of-choice/#fn:3
Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by joppy on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:52AM (#27854908)
The set of positive integers starts {1, 2, 3, …} and there are no positive integers smaller than 1. On the other hand the set of positive real numbers has no smallest element, since for any positive real number x, the number x/2 is smaller and still a positive real. It’s not that the reals are unorderable (they are most certainly ordered), it’s that certain subsets of the reals do not necessarily contain a minimum/maximum.
Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by jfengel on Friday July 16, 2021 @01:46PM (#27858977)
It's not just about ordering, but well-ordering. Which says not just that you can put them in order, but that you can put them in order with a first element (one that's always less than all of the others).

So you can have a set like "all real numbers greater than 0". It doesn't have an obvious first element, even though you can always compare any two numbers and say "this one is less than that one".

There may be a non-obvious first element, i.e. some strategy for picking a first element that applies to all sets. That's the Well-Ordering Principle. Which feels false to most mathematicians, but it's equivalent to the Axiom of Choice, which feels true.

Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by Sharlin on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:53AM (#27854919)
How does it contradict that? The set of negative integers does not have a least element, and neither does the set of negative reals. (But the former does have a greatest element (–1) while the latter doesn’t have that, either.)
Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by nixpulvis on Friday July 16, 2021 @07:15AM (#27855074)
Oh dear, I dropped the critical word "positive" from this in my reading. My bad.
Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by nanis on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:08AM (#27855827)
> why real numbers are somehow unorderable

They are orderable ... For all x, y in R, either x >= y or x < y.

But R is not bounded (no inf, sup) and therefore has no minimum and no maximum.

Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by threatofrain on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:30AM (#27856578)
What's the consequence of extending the reals with infinities, as my textbook for real analysis does?
Re:What is the Axiom of Choice? by rocqua on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:42AM (#27856715)
That every closed set has a maximum and a minimum.

Relatedly, every set gets a supremum and an infumum. (The first two must be members of the set. The second two can lie outside the set).

Without the extension, you need to make an exception for unbounded sets with the above rules.