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Re:We’re all criminals now by jeroenhd on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:44AM (#27773482)
The point of crypto currency is to do the exact thing money laundering laws try to prevent: to transfer large sums of cash untraceably across the globe, with no way for the government to do anything about it.

Recently it's become a game of baseless investment, but anyone actually wanting to use crypto currencies as payment should've seen this coming from miles away.

Re:We’re all criminals now by dash2 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:00PM (#27773771)
It's not just money-laundering laws. It's also more general "financial repression", i.e. being forced to hold local currencies while the government inflates them and/or holds the interest rate down. The two tend to blur into each other, I guess.
Re:We’re all criminals now by JumpCrisscross on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:12PM (#27773955)
> two tend to blur into each other

Not entirely. Capital controls and currency bans are distinct from AML.

South Africa's proximate problem is capital controls. Cryptocurrencies make those controls easier to circumvent. If you look at the countries that are responding forcefully to crypto, it's the ones who want a sovereign monetary policy and relatively fixed exchange rate [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity

Re:We’re all criminals now by zionic on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:16PM (#27774034)
Exactly. 350+ million people get screwed when the government triples the money supply, but relatively few people use crypto to buy coke and that’s suddenly what it’s all about.
Re:We’re all criminals now by tablespoon on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:43PM (#27774508)
> 350+ million people get screwed when the government triples the money supply

Not necessairly if those people have a lot of debt, or the inflation fears turn out to be a mirage.

Re:We’re all criminals now by mhuffman on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:49PM (#27774588)
> or the inflation fears turn out to be a mirage

We have many examples throughout history where dumping large amounts (multiples) of money into an economy causes inflation. And to my knowledge, we have no examples to the contrary (ie, it being a mirage).

What would make you think that this time it could be a mirage?

Re:We’re all criminals now by tablespoon on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:02PM (#27774808)
> What would make you think that this time it could be a mirage?

Because people have been wailing about hyperinflation fears for the last decade at least, and it hasn't happened.

Re:We’re all criminals now by octopoc on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:38AM (#27783067)
You can delay the consequences of bad currency management, but eventually the consequences will hit you, hard.

The normal rules are on hold because the USD is the world reserve currency. When USD are manufactured, a huge chunk of them is bought by wealthy foreigners to store value. That means that we haven't felt the consequences of printing lots of money because we've been sharing the consequences with a huge and growing number of wealthy foreigners.

But the only reason the USD is the world reserve currency is because there's nothing better. When something better enough comes along, all that USD will come flooding back and we'll suffer all the inflationary consequences of printing money for decades. Those consequences will be compressed to a very short amount of time.

Re:We’re all criminals now by JetSpiegel on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @07:34PM (#27839777)
> The normal rules are on hold because the USD is the world reserve currency.

As it has been for more than 50 years. Entire people's lives happened between those "consequences".

On the long term, we are all dead.

Re:We’re all criminals now by infamouscow on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:06PM (#27773863)
> The point of crypto currency is to do the exact thing money laundering laws try to prevent

No. That's not the point of cryptocurrency.

> to transfer large sums of cash untraceably across the globe

Wrong again. You can trace all transactions across the globe with cryptocurrency.

> with no way for the government to do anything about it

Why is that a bad thing?

Re:We’re all criminals now by JumpCrisscross on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:11PM (#27773942)
> Why is that a bad thing?

It inhibits tax collection, which funds common goods. It also thwarts law enforcement, which is counter to public benefit.

We can debate whether taxes or laws or governments should exist. But they do, and most people seem to favor that. Debating a thing and actively subverting it are different. Just as subverting a thing and expecting such subversion to have no consequences or response are different.

Re:We’re all criminals now by matheusmoreira on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:09AM (#27782468)
> We can debate whether taxes or laws or governments should exist.

It is pointless to debate the need for taxes with the corrupt governments and their taxmen. They make the laws, they have a monopoly on the use of force and they do not want to relinquish their power. The only possible move is to subvert them.

> Debating a thing and actively subverting it are different. Just as subverting a thing and expecting such subversion to have no consequences or response are different.

We know there are consequences. That is why technology must take that into account. They make their ridiculous laws, we make it impossible for them to be effectively enforced. They'll have to stoop to ever increasing levels of tyranny in order to maintain the same level of control they previously enjoyed.

Is there a limit? I don't know. I fully expect them to try to link cryptocurrency to terrorism or something.

Re:We’re all criminals now by tomjen3 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:18PM (#27775048)
We tried the debate. We didn't win. Why should we stop there?
Re:We’re all criminals now by da_big_ghey on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:21PM (#27774144)
"It also thwarts law enforcement, which is counter to public benefit." not in all case. but also is enabling purchase of goods and services outside of government allowence? people who want psychadelic to treat ptsd, sex work, repressive regime that bar purchase of certain material all circumvented. only a tool, can be good or bad.
Re:We’re all criminals now by rmah on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:56PM (#27774703)
That would be thwarting law enforcement.
Re:We’re all criminals now by axx0 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:16PM (#27774036)
How exactly does this inhibit tax collection?
Re:We’re all criminals now by JumpCrisscross on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:18PM (#27774086)
> How exactly does this inhibit tax collection?

If you have something that lets you "transfer large sums of cash untraceably across the globe, with no way for the government to do anything about it," it's going to make it easier to hide income and assets. That inhibits tax collection. (Same way cash does.)

Re:We’re all criminals now by apercu on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:41PM (#27774467)
I bet if we took all the legal and illegal offshore shenanigans and the laws written by the wealthiest that create more loopholes, the amount of "inhibiting" of tax collection by cryptocurrency in comparison is a rounding error.
Re:We’re all criminals now by mikewarot on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:39PM (#27775353)
Crypto doesn't let you transfer cash. Someone has to sell you the crypto for cash, and someone has to buy the crypto for cash... at both ends, taxes and law enforcement can act.
Re:We’re all criminals now by ethbr0 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:09PM (#27773912)
> You can trace all transactions across the globe with cryptocurrency

* Assuming KYC laws are enforced and account holders are listed

Re:We’re all criminals now by gorgonzolachz on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:56PM (#27775594)
KYC only helps to an extent, right? My understanding of crypto is minimal, but if you run your own miner I assume you don't need to verify anything to anyone. You should be able to send out transactions to the network and have them be accepted anonymously, which is what most people who would be interested in money laundering would do.
Re:We’re all criminals now by ethbr0 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @03:14PM (#27776482)
For proof of work, I think that's true.

When things start moving to proof of stake, less so.

Re:We’re all criminals now by the-dude on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:13PM (#27773972)
> Why is that a bad thing?

It was decided it was a bad thing when the US coerced the rest of the Western world into the war on terror. If you are not with us, you are against us etc.

Re:We’re all criminals now by yuvadam on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:03PM (#27773809)
All cryptocurrencies (sans the ones that are privacy-preserving) are more traceable than fiat money.

As for "baseless investment", you might want to read up on hard money properties.

Re:We’re all criminals now by imtringued on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:28PM (#27774258)
>As for "baseless investment", you might want to read up on hard money properties.

How does hard money ensure that a decay in real investments does not erode the real value of the currency in the long run? It doesn't. You're relying on the rest of the world to make those real investments to maintain the real value of your currency. Having a currency be a store of value just shifts the medium of exchange function to a different currency. The idea that you make a profit off of making it harder to do real investments is absurd.

It's equivalent to letting a plot of land sit idle for 20 years while the population grows and then expect the future generation to work hard for it even though you did nothing to improve the value of the land, nor did you help people get higher paying jobs so they can afford your expensive land.

Re:We’re all criminals now by DistantCl3ric on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:12PM (#27773963)
According to Chainalysis, in 2020 only 0.35% of crypto transactions were associated with illicit activity.

Cash is still king when it comes to crime. Crypto can help make it harder for criminals.

Re:We’re all criminals now by mrzimmerman on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:28PM (#27774270)
How does Chainalysis claim to know the intent behind all of the crypto transactions they studied?
Re:We’re all criminals now by DistantCl3ric on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:35PM (#27774371)
Good question! I am not sure! I had a brief look at their 2020 and 2021 report but I havent been able to see how they got the data and reached their conclusions.

Its worth noting that their entire business is built around detecting blockchain based illicit activities.

Re:We’re all criminals now by mrzimmerman on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:38PM (#27774434)
That’s interesting! I’ll search it out and see what I can find.
Re:We’re all criminals now by conanbatt on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:05PM (#27773850)
The main interest of governments to ban crypto currency is to levy taxes and have more information on citizenry.
Re:We’re all criminals now by ineedasername on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:14PM (#27774006)
Also to maintain control of monetary policy.
Re:We’re all criminals now by conanbatt on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:25PM (#27774219)
Im not so sure. Most countries do not ban foreign currencies.
Re:We’re all criminals now by tim333 on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:43AM (#27783564)
Though the article isn't really about that - it's about South Africa's capital controls which long predate crypto.
Re:We’re all criminals now by imtringued on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:08PM (#27773901)
Yes, let's be real. The vast majority of people who use cryptocurrencies for payments use them because they have no legal alternative. It's the same problem that all privacy focused technologies "suffer" from. When the law is wrong then you have no choice but to break the law but there is no way to distinguish people escaping from an oppressive government and people laundering money from criminal sources. The oppressed and the criminals both take the same bus.
Re:We’re all criminals now by ineedasername on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:13PM (#27773979)
when the law is wrong

Yes, although on a volume basis money laundering for criminal (as in organized crime) is likely much larger than refugees fleeing their country & attempting to take some of their money with them.

Re:We’re all criminals now by ajkdhcb2 on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:44PM (#27774518)
>but there is no way to distinguish people escaping from an oppressive government and people laundering money from criminal sources

Is there a difference? Which governments aren't oppressive so their definitions of criminal sources don't count? I think they are exactly the same thing. A meaningful split might instead be funds derived from violent crime vs victimless crime.

Re:We’re all criminals now by kerng on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:12PM (#27773959)
The whole crypto is bad, reminds me of the crypto wars where governments to this day try to outlaw encryption technology because bad guys can use it also.

You know ransomware encrypts data to make it inaccessible - we should ban encryption also.

Funny how it even shares the name with cryptocurrencies

Re:We’re all criminals now by matheusmoreira on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:47AM (#27782690)
Completely agree. Money laundering laws are just the financial version of global surveillance. This cryptocurrency debate is just the financial version of the crypto wars. History just keeps repeating. I find it interesting how the government is a lot more heavy handed when money is involved...
Re:We’re all criminals now by LudwigNagasena on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:20PM (#27774134)
I thought money laundering laws were trying to prevent money laundering, not transferring of cash.