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Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by verytrivial on Sunday June 27, 2021 @08:11PM (#27656703)
"[Hate speech] threatens the safety and well-being of its targets."

The UK is in the throes of trying to define what sort of speech warrants protection in a free society. The problem seems to stem from the parameters of 'harm' being defined almost entirely by the victim. There are claims that arguments against certain idiologies "deny the existence" of groups, and further that expressing these idea seems to lead directly to self harm and suicides. So, "speech that causes harm" and makes people feel hated. Bingo: 'hate speech'. But what happens when there isn't any hate or targeted 'detesting' going on? (Or good data on suicides for that matter.) It's open for abuse by a mob. Not a good path to head down in a pluralist, liberal society IMHO.

It's strange to me that at least within nations, the previously war-starting disagreements about the finer details of the Abrahamic religions seem to have chosen different orbits within society, politely nod to each other and know no good will come from trying to lock horns. The kids on Twitter now have apparently equally strongly held beliefs about other stuff but are utterly gob-smacked that other people won't agree with them even though they KNOW THEY'RE RIGHT.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by AlexTWithBeard on Sunday June 27, 2021 @08:47PM (#27656920)
> what sort of speech warrants protection in a free society

In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964), the Supreme Court stated that "debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open."

Which is a quite generous definition which yet excludes the infamous "fire in the crowded theater" case.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by caseysoftware on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:20PM (#27657113)
> Which is a quite generous definition which yet excludes the infamous "fire in the crowded theater" case.

That stems from the 1919 Schenk case[0] which hinged on "dangerous and false" and was reconsidered in Brandenburg v Ohio[1] and the standard was raised to "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".

Effectively:

- If the "dangerous" speech is false or likely to "incite imminent lawless action", you have trouble.

- If the "dangerous" speech is debatable as true or not OR debatable on if it would "incite imminent lawless action", then it's way less clear.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by int_19h on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:41PM (#27657542)
It's also worth mentioning that the Schenck case was about distribution of leaflets with anti-war (WW1) propaganda and encouraging draft dodging. So not only there's an obvious slippery slope in this argument, but it was exercised as soon as it was presented.
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by a1369209993 on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:08AM (#27658069)
To be fair, that just puts it with "those who give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither", "information wants to be free" and "I'm not my brother's keeper" in the category of aphorisms that are valid as typically used despite their original coinage being in service of bullshit. (Edit: or possibly honest mistakes for the information one; I don't remember offhand.)
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by Causality1 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:03PM (#27657022)
I wish people would quit trotting that out. Shouting "fire" in a theater is perfectly legal.
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by AlexTWithBeard on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:22PM (#27657129)
It is not legal, at least in the US, partly due to the quote from the post above.

It will be very hard for anyone to prove that yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater comprises a "debate on public issue".

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by edoceo on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:10PM (#27657058)
Please try and tell me/us how it works out. I'm not willing to try.

And, here's the big W on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_t...

"speech that is dangerous and false is not protected, as opposed to speech that is dangerous but also true."

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by Causality1 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:14PM (#27657076)
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by 6f8986c3 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:32PM (#27657189)
False as dictated by who?

Big Tech San Francisco censored the lab leak hypothesis, now accepted as credible.

During the lockdowns, politicians freely held dinners and mingled, mask-free with their friends. For those less equal than others, you were fined or arrested.

Invading in the Capitol was "peaceful protest" in 2018 when Democrats did it, but "insurrection" in 2021, because Republicans did it.

The New York Times now ranks below Breitbart in terms of credibility.

Same goes for universities. You know why people don't "trust the science"? Because when you mix politics and science, you get politics, not science.

"Dangerous and false" now just means "isn't approved by CNN today, but might be tomorrow if convenient".

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by bccdee on Sunday June 27, 2021 @11:39PM (#27657873)
"Big tech san francisco" has no obligation to platform anything. They can choose which posts they want to leave up based on their own whims. Now, if the government were to crack down on lab leak speculation, that would be a legal free speech issue.

Slander, meanwhile, is by definition false (as determined by a court). If the court finds that it isn't false, then it wasn't slander. Thus it isn't protected by law, and the state can prosecute you over it.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by edoceo on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:56PM (#27657327)
2018 had 100s of arrest.

2021 had folks die/get murdered.

I can see how you are confused.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by TMWNN on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:25PM (#27657465)
>2021 had folks die/get murdered.

The one person who died violently was one of the rioters, an unarmed woman who was shot by Capitol Police. Four other rioters died of natural causes around the time of the riot.

(And before you mention him, Officer Sicknick did not die from being hit by a fire extinguisher because that never happened (<https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brian-sicknick-fire-exting...>). He died of a stroke which the autopsy found no connection with the riot (<https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/brian-sickn...>).)

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by AlexTWithBeard on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:24PM (#27657135)
> Please try and tell me/us how it works out. I'm not willing to try.

Being a devil's advocate, that's been tried multiple time by faulty fire alarms.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by rolobio on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:05PM (#27657371)
It is legal. What if there actually is a fire?
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by IgorPartola on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:11PM (#27657400)
I keep seeing this sentiment in all the comments here. Can you show us an example of speech that is ambiguous in whether it is hate speech or not? I accept that everyone has a different opinion on a lot of topics, but I think on average we can discern hate speech from simple discussions and arguments.
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by livueta on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:30PM (#27657491)
Since the parent mentioned the UK, this example springs to mind:

https://www.economist.com/international/2021/06/05/a-backlas...

Discussed at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27603912

> The arguments the two sides put forward, in other words, are complex and debatable. But many trans activists think that any disagreement is tantamount to hate speech and try to suppress it. Some universities with policies that reflect the belief that trans women are women have acted on complaints about people who do nothing more than express a contrary view. In May, after students at Abertay University in Dundee reported that a student had said at a seminar that women have vaginas and men are stronger, the university launched an investigation.

Regardless of personal opinions on the topic, the fact that it gets this sort of is-it-or-isn't-it treatment in a major newspaper, on top of the seesawing behavior from universities described in the article itself, is a good indication that the topic's nature as "hate speech" or not is fairly ambiguous.

When everybody is participating in good faith, "I know it when I see it" obscenity test type stuff works fine. It's less obviously useful of a yardstick when there's a clear incentive to make bad faith claims against ideological or organizational rivals.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by IgorPartola on Sunday June 27, 2021 @11:26PM (#27657776)
So this almost word for word reminds me of the moral panic of the 1990s about political correctness. “There is a professor, he is doing professor thing and he know a bunch about this subject but the students went after him and he wasn’t allowed to continue to teach and now we have less education.”

In reality in those cases there was almost no backlash and in fact everyone treated the professor with kid gloves while what he purported to have done was way worse and what the students had done was way overblown (see the Political Correctness of the excellent podcast called You Are Wrong About). So pardon me if I don’t buy this particular article/story line.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by bingbingbong on Monday June 28, 2021 @04:10PM (#27667276)
You asked for an ambiguous example and you got one. What do you mean you don't buy it?
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by refurb on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:32PM (#27657496)
Sure. The Covid lab leak theory. One argument for censoring it was it incited anti-Asian violence.

Apparently now it’s a viable theory but rewind 9 months ago and one could see a hate speech law silencing any debate.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by justbored123 on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:50AM (#27658535)
Sorry but how is this a case for debate??? This is not a matter of opinion, it's an extremely serious accusation that a foreign government institution caused a global catastrophe of historic proportions. Do you have the type of incredibly solid evidence that would take to back that type of accusation in court?? If you do, then go to court, if you don't then there's nothing to "debate" unless you are shopping for a defamation lawsuit that is what would be a fair and logical consequence to that type of baseless accusation. People abuse free speech because they are not facing the due legal consequences for all the defamation they incur on. But just because it's hard to prosecute so many offenders doesn't make it right or legal.
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by refurb on Monday June 28, 2021 @04:59AM (#27659517)
Ok, but the question is - is it "hate speech"?

And BTW, the President is actively pursuing an investigation into this. It's not some crackpot conspiracy.

Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by IgorPartola on Sunday June 27, 2021 @11:28PM (#27657789)
When the people who are championing this theory while presenting no evidence happen to also be very pro-white power, yeah it sure sounds like hate speech. Just because a broken clock is right twice a day doesn’t mean you should go by it.
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by postsantum on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:44AM (#27658200)
Guilty by association?
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by IgorPartola on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:00PM (#27663568)
Have you never heard of the little boy who cried wolf? If 99% of the time when the things you say aren't even lies but just straight up rejection of reality altogether, yes your reputation as a truth teller might suffer.
Re:Canada to make online hate speech a crime punishable by fine by refurb on Monday June 28, 2021 @12:34AM (#27658161)
Case in point!