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Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by kaba0 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @11:39AM (#27652426)
But system init is a hard, complex problem. You can’t create a simple solution for that, since there is an inherent complexity. I prefer systemd over having a bunch of bash scripts trying to do service restart, logging, dependency management and failing at it. You would still get the same complexity but at a different (worse) level.
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by cesarb on Sunday June 27, 2021 @12:16PM (#27652767)
> But system init is a hard, complex problem. [...] a bunch of bash scripts trying to do service restart, logging, dependency management and failing at it.

Playing devil's advocate: system init by itself is easy, just have a single script starting each daemon in sequence, like it was done in the distant past (IIRC, "init" started both the getty for each terminal, and ran a single startup script). It's the "service restart, logging, dependency management" part that's complicated. And unfortunately, since nowadays devices are often hot-pluggable, you can't really escape from the "dependency management" part.

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by kaba0 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @12:29PM (#27652910)
Dependency management is not only due to hot-pluggability, but inherent dependencies between different services. This is the same problem as with package managers and I would not necessarily say it is easy.
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by generalizations on Sunday June 27, 2021 @12:30PM (#27652921)
> But system init is a hard, complex problem.

It's not. Read the shell scripts that openbsd uses to init. Simple, straightforward, easy to understand.

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by ageofzfarm on Sunday June 27, 2021 @01:10PM (#27653260)
The complexity is buried in the huge work the OpenBSD devs make to keep the kernel and the base system small, elegant and consistent.

I read your comment more as a tribute to the excellent work of the OpenBSD team than a denial of the thesis of the complexity of the init process.

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by generalizations on Sunday June 27, 2021 @01:54PM (#27653630)
> The complexity is buried in the huge work the OpenBSD devs make to keep the kernel and the base system small, elegant and consistent.

>> You can’t create a simple solution for that, since there is an inherent complexity.

They didn't bury the complexity, they removed it. And I agree, that's hard to do. It'd be nice if the systemd folks put in the same effort to remove the complexity from their system.