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Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by baybal2 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @06:12AM (#27650218)
> Systemd is 10 years in making

Systemd is 10 years in making, and still manages to brick production servers.

The problem is not with SystemD or its coding as such, but the ideology it came with, and bad developers who push it.

The last attempts to make it saner basically reverted it back to sysvinit. So, not much difference now.

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by bonzini on Sunday June 27, 2021 @06:18AM (#27650244)
> The last attempts to make it saner basically reverted it back to sysvinit

Uhm, how so?

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by throw-8462682 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @08:02AM (#27650898)
How likely is it that the prolific systemd team and tech decision makers in Linux distributions don’t have a design instinct and came up with this ball of mud full of accidental and unneeded complexity? Have you considered that there may be teams and requirements outside your current sphere of experience?
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by mjw1007 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @08:45AM (#27651143)
It certainly does sometimes happen that difficult software projects end up being implemented by people who (at least at the start) don't understand the problems involved, for reasons related to the "winner's curse" [1].

That is, people who underestimate the difficulty of a project are more likely to attempt it, and people who don't understand the area well are more likely to underestimate its difficulty.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winner%27s_curse

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by throw-8462682 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:20AM (#27651354)
It happens but it’s not clear what you intend to say with that, so maybe just say it? I don’t think the systemd team could have imagined the success and scope of the project from day 1. Another explanation for their success is that the team was onto something, and by using proper engineering practices (work incrementally on pieces that are individually useful) became successful. Think T S Kuhn’s progressive research program.
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by mjw1007 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:00AM (#27651623)
I'm saying that I don't think reasoning by considering questions like

« How likely is it that the prolific systemd team and tech decision makers in Linux distributions don’t have a design instinct and came up with this ball of mud full of accidental and unneeded complexity? »

is likely to be fruitful.

If people want to discuss whether systemd is well designed, it would be better to look at the design directly.

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by throw-8462682 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @01:00PM (#27653170)
Agreed that this line of questioning is not likely to be fruitful. The alternative of discussing the design would have my preference normally, but i am not sure that it works any better for this hyper polarized topic.
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by iso1210 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:40AM (#27651933)
Maybe there are, but that doesn't help me.

The systemd way seems to be "one tool of complexity 40 to 50 things" rather than "50 tools of complexity 1 each doing one thing".

When you only need 10 things, you only need 10 simple tools of complexity 10, rather than one tool of complexity 40.

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by kaba0 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @11:41AM (#27652444)
That’s not how complexity works. Inherent complexity can’t really be outsourced meaningfully.
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by baybal2 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @08:16AM (#27650974)
For SystemD, I see none.

Though, I see unfulfilled urge to give Linux "serious enterprise grade" twist, and bog everything in "serious enterprise frameworks of doom"

Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by throw-8462682 on Sunday June 27, 2021 @09:26AM (#27651401)
If you think that systemd is an ‘enterprise framework of doom’ then you must not have worked in Java enterprise software development.
Re:Avoiding Complexity with Systemd by josephcsible on Sunday June 27, 2021 @11:10AM (#27652169)
Having suffered under both, I'd totally spend the rest of my life developing enterprise Java if it meant systemd went away forever.