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Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by vages on Thursday June 24, 2021 @08:58AM (#27616793)
> “Signal has not complied with the guidelines. Services like iMessage do not fall under the traceability clause since the significant social media intermediaries in the nature of messaging services have to comply,” said an official, requesting anonymity.

What does “Services like iMessage do not fall under the traceability clause since the significant social media intermediaries in the nature of messaging services have to comply” mean?

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by mactavish88 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:21AM (#27617002)
> said an official, requesting anonymity.

How ironic

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by EGreg on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:32AM (#27617117)
Hahahahaha
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by nathanyukai on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:02AM (#27616833)
"you don't decrypt message for us so we don't like you"
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by _wldu on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:02AM (#27616832)
They probably have a method to trace message metadata using the application provider's infrastructure.

It's sort of like a home phone. Law enforcement officials can contact Verizon to learn who you called and who called you, what time, duration of the call, etc.

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by jbluepolarbear on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:16AM (#27616965)
You mean with a warrant right?
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by sandworm101 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:33AM (#27617136)
Warrants have legal meaning but little practical impact. They can be requested and granted very easily. The process offers very little protection. If the cops ask for warrant to request the list of numbers called, they will get it.

That said, warrants are not always needed. The logic goes that the phone company already knows who you have called. They needed that information when they connected the calls. They store that information for billing purposes. So connection/metadata isn't private because you have already shared it with the phone company. In many countries that is sufficient to moot the entire warrant debate. (This logic then extends to other data used to make connections and route internet traffic such as IP addresses.) And if the phone company/ISP is a state-owned/backed/licensed enterprise there is little privacy left to argue over.

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by clucas on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:36AM (#27619132)
> Warrants have legal meaning but little practical impact. They can be requested and granted very easily. The process offers very little protection. If the cops ask for warrant to request the list of numbers called, they will get it.

What are you basing this on? Warrants require probable cause (in the US at least). Are you saying that that the probable cause requirement still allows warrants to be granted very easily? Or that the probable cause requirement is not being followed?

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by vngzs on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:51AM (#27619368)
> Are you saying that that the probable cause requirement still allows warrants to be granted very easily? Or that the probably cause requirement is not being followed?

Well, both.

Warrants may be granted very easily via the FISA courts [0]. They are unenforced in the warrantless wiretap programs [1]. If your wiretap happened to be illegal, and you want to work around this to win the court case anyway, you use parallel construction to build a case that does not rely on the secret wiretap [2]:

> Because the SOD's work is classified, DEA cases that began as NSA leads can't be seen to have originated from a NSA source.

> So what does the DEA do? It makes up the story of how the agency really came to the case in a process known as "parallel construction."

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_(...

[2]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05...

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by clucas on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:42PM (#27620148)
You are talking about a particular type of warrant. I don't think the average local police force is getting FISA warrants for their day-to-day police work (maybe I'm wrong? I would like to see numbers on that before I change my mind though), and OP did not limit their statment to FISA warrants.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by vngzs on Thursday June 24, 2021 @03:24PM (#27622640)
The news sources I've encountered seem to imply otherwise. The linked Washington Post article was an early hint at this, and built on original material from [0]. Now we have other sources backing this up, such as [1], and detailed breakdowns of this practice with lots of evidence as seen in [2]. Just search for the word "local" or "state" in [2] if you need the details.

[0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir...

[1]: https://theintercept.com/2018/01/09/dark-side-fbi-dea-illega...

[2]: https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/01/09/dark-side/secret-origi...

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by sandworm101 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:06PM (#27621593)
>> Are you saying that that the probable cause requirement still allows warrants to be granted very easily?

Yes. Probable cause is not a significant burden and can be met with "evidence" that would normally never be admitted. Cops regularly rely on unnamed out-of-court CIs. For telephone call records, the simple fact that a phone number appeared during an investigation is likely enough for a warrant to see which other numbers it has connected to.

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by clucas on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:23PM (#27621823)
Interesting, thanks.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by oscardssmith on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:08PM (#27619633)
The problem is that no warrant is needed if the phone company complies without asking for one. Basically the government says "hey can we see this users data? (And if you say no, we'll get a warrant that requires you to do extra work)", and then the phone company turns over your data without requiring the warrant because they don't care about you.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by clucas on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:45PM (#27620181)
I was specifically addressing OP's statement that the warrant requirement does not offer much protection - I'm not talking about situations where a warrant is not required. I think I probably agree with you that over-compliance by phone companies is a problem, but that's not what I was asking about.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by vel0city on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:04AM (#27618666)
Third-party doctrine had eroded the need for warrants for a long time. Luckily there's been progress in slowly clawing back our rights in the last decade or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by pdpi on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:18AM (#27616981)
Hopefully yes, but that's a separate matter. The important part is that it's technically feasible and you can then use whatever legal (or otherwise) mechanisms to get the metadata.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by sp332 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:42AM (#27617244)
In the USA, the Stored Communication Act lets law enforcement pull call records without a warrant, if that's what you were asking?
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by tinus_hn on Saturday June 26, 2021 @06:19AM (#27640692)
Yes, a perfectly valid legally issued warrant for any and all details about all messages the officer wants.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by exo762 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:10AM (#27616914)
Obfuscated "we want Apple to move some production to India, this is why we don't want to piss them off".
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by muststopmyths on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:58AM (#27617492)
I think it makes a bit more sense as "significant social media platforms in the guise of messaging services" , since iMessage doesn't function as a social media platform.

edit: removed editorializing.

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by tmp538394722 on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:37AM (#27627477)
That’s the only interpretation that at least makes some kind of sense.

Not that I agree with it. Signal and iMessage have way more in common than they do differently, but at least it’s a coherent sentence.

Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by mananvaghasiya on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:05AM (#27616863)
It probably means that usage of iMessage is not significant enough.
Re:Signal not in compliance with new rules, say officials by tmp538394722 on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:35AM (#27627462)
I would be amazed if less than 5 million people in India used iMessage.