News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:13PM (#27607035)
> chronically underfunding schools

In Washington State, for decades there was a big push to "fully fund" the schools. They finally got their way a couple years back, i.e. just about everything they wanted.

There has been zero improvement in results.

There has been no further mention of "fully funding" the schools in the press since, but the demands for more and more money for the schools have not abated at all.

Edit: the fully funding was in place in 2018

https://www.washingtonea.org/ourvoice/mccleary-school-fundin...

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:03PM (#27607775)
Things like that puzzle me.

Baltimore, MD high school graduation rate is under 70% [1].

They spend $18k per student [2] - more than 45 other states on average [3]

Citizens of Baltimore even elected a black grassroot mayor who understands needs of the community [4] and Maryland's police brutality is among the lowest in the country [5].

Yet something doesn't work.

WHY?

[1] https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-ci...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/03/30/bal...

[3] https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statisti...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Scott

[5] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123317/rate-people-kill...

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by tomschlick on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:45PM (#27608402)
> WHY?

Because no matter how much better the schools / administration of it get, it all falls down if the kids don't have a culture at home of valuing education.

My sister taught in a few different low income school districts and each time it was the same thing. Probably 75% of the parents just don't care if their kid is misbehaving or straight up not attending at all. Discipline of those kids was met with accusations of racism by both the kid and the parent as a tool to stop the conversation all together. Phone calls home about performance were generally met with "its your job to teach them not mine". Almost no one showed up to parent teacher meetings. Kids who did want to learn were made fun of by other kids as "acting white".

All of this leads to administrations and teachers pushing under-qualified students through to get them out of the way. There is little incentive for them to personally invest in kids when there is no investment at home. Something has got to give.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mcguire on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:49PM (#27609184)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h9mp8cWP7GQfrthZ1A4ccTfrHlx...

Looks like Baltimore bit big into the charter school idea, where the cost-per-student at the school level is apparently somewhat higher (30%, $10,000 vs $7,900 judging by the first couple of pages of the per-school table). Administration is about 11% of the expenses. Interestingly, the City Schools' "District Offices" average $174,000 per "Full-Time Equivalent" for whatever that's worth.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by oh_sigh on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:46PM (#27608417)
It's not really clear to me that being a "black grassroot mayor who understands the needs of the community" is a benefit without any kind of experience managing and operating large organizations.

The operating budget of Baltimore is approximately $4B/year. I can't imagine many companies with that kind of budget that would hire a CEO/COO with Scott's resume to run it.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:53PM (#27609268)
The sky will fall before a greedy fat cat corporate CEO will be elected as a public official - no matter what his track record in managing other people's money is.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by oh_sigh on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:36PM (#27609982)
Sure - I wasn't saying a corporate CEO would even be the right person to run a large city(though Bloomberg did pretty well relative to the expectations of a NYC mayor), but merely pointing out that businesses with operating budgets of a similar size are much choosier with who they put in charge.

In Baltimore, the democratic mayoral candidate is a shoe-in. So the Democratic mayoral primaries are actually the real election. And Scott bested his opponents in that competition with ~45,000 votes total.

So really only about 7% of the city(pop 620,000) voted for him, but that's just how the system works.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by UnpossibleJim on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:39PM (#27607444)
https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/detail/school-...

That, not unlike a lot of college misspending, was an administration issue, not a teacher issue. I, like most people don't mind paying taxes, but I want an itemized bill for my purchases and some redress when the money is misspent (I also live in WA... and the Seattle area is notorious for these types of shenanigans).

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:00PM (#27607736)
There are good schools and there are bad schools. Pumping money into bad schools doesn't help, as many urban areas have found out.

Schools are institutions and have all the inertia that any other institution has. Send a good kid to a bad school and they'll perform on that level. Send a good teacher to a bad school and they'll half-ass it long enough to get the experience on their resume and move on.

If you wanna make a bad school good you break it up and sprinkle the students teachers and administrators among schools that are doing alright. Those people mostly then go on to perform at the same level as those around them.

People vote for shoveling money at the schools because it's a feel good measure and doesn't require doing anything difficult.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by yardie on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:15PM (#27607987)
A couple years back is 2019. I'm not sure you know how schools work but suddenly pumping money in doesn't dramatically increase test scores the next fiscal quarter. I think nearly everyone agrees public schools could use more funding, the debates tend to be about "on what and how much."
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:40PM (#27608333)
I looked it up, it was fully in place by summer 2018.

P.S. I didn't say "dramatically". I said "zero" improvement. Doing better than zero is as low a bar as possible. I fail to see that as unreasonable. There isn't even a plan for success.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by UncleOxidant on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:02PM (#27608619)
But note that 2020/2021 school years where heavily disrupted by covid. Let's take a look back in a few years to see how they're doing, I'm not sure we can make many inferences from the limited data so far.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:23PM (#27608861)
There's not even a progress report after it being fully in place for 1.5 school years.

Nothing at all has changed.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by yardie on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:25PM (#27609799)
What exactly were you expecting? I assume you aren't an educator.

Education is a process with a decade long pipeline. Simply doubling the budget doesn't turn into 2x brighter kids.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @07:13PM (#27611761)
I agree that expecting 2x improvement in a year and a half is unreasonable. But I didn't say 2x improvement.

I said zero progress. Something greater than zero should be achievable in 1.5 yeras.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mcguire on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:14PM (#27608769)
"Edit: the fully funding was in place in 2018"

How fast do you expect results?

The Washington Supreme Court decision: http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/843627.opn.pdf

"The State has failed to meet its duty under article IX, section 1 by consistently providing school districts with a level of resources that falls short of the actual costs of the basic education program. The legislature recently enacted sweeping reforms to remedy the deficiencies in the funding system, and it is currently making progress toward phasing in those reforms."

Apparently the state was calling for a level of funding, but not providing the money and requiring local taxes to make up the difference. (Hence "fully funding".)

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:25PM (#27608875)
It was fully implemented in the summer of 2018. See my cite.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mcguire on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:53PM (#27609267)
You cannot produce a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant.

Summer of 2018 is too late for the 2018/2019 year. That gives them 2019/2020 (half messed up due to the pandemic) and 2020/2021 (half messed up and ongoing).

Since this seems to be yet another issue of a state screwing low income districts, one wouldn't expect any change in high income districts, either.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @07:26PM (#27611873)
The baby is detectable after one month.

There is no detectable progress.

I confidently predict that the pandemic will be the go-to excuse for zero progress for at least the next decade, and probably two.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by kenjackson on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:41PM (#27609082)
You do realize this is about where the money was coming from. The state had a constitutional mandate to fund education at a certain level and weren't doing so. Local and federal funding was making up the gap.

You won't see any impact to education because there isn't more money coming to education as a result of this ruling. Rather more money can flow from federal and local gov't to other programs (or in theory taxes could be lowered). This case is about funding sources more than funding amounts.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:39PM (#27613702)
If what you're saying is true, then why did the school system say this would fix education?
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by kenjackson on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:31AM (#27630539)
Anyone who thinks that this fixes education is crazy or insincere. It potentially raises just as many questions as answers. What it should do is relieve pressure from poorer communities though. It also does open the door to pass future education initiatives at the state level which require funding, which can improve education.

But the problems with education are more systemic than just the educational system itself. That said, its good that the state pick up its constitutional responsibility to fully fund education in the state.

https://smartergovernmentwa.org/mccleary-decision-just-fully...

https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/education-lab-iq-...

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by UncleOxidant on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:01PM (#27608597)
I'm not sure you can tell much after only 3 years and one of those years schools were shut down for covid. Let's check back in about 3 or 4 years and see how they're doing.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by sokoloff on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:18PM (#27608035)
Would you expect a measurable improvement in results in 2 normal years, to say nothing of two COVID-impacted school years?
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:38PM (#27608319)
It was fully in place for the 2018-2019, and 2019-2020 school years. So yeah, I expect measurable improvement in results.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by sokoloff on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:46PM (#27608411)
For a student who was educated for 10 years under funding level A and where funding level B was available for 1 full school year (2018-2019), resulting in some changes in the classrooms in the districts only after some time delay after funding was approved, I'd expect to see almost no change in the spring 2019 testing. Spring 2020 testing was impacted by COVID. It's fine that we have different expectations, though.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:59PM (#27608577)
The thing is, the "fully-funding" issue has completely vanished from the agenda. It is never discussed anymore. It's back to the same old "we need more funding to make a difference" rhetoric.

In fact, I recall the very day the legislation passed, the same advocates were demanding even more money.

I've lived in Seattle for over 40 years now. Long enough to see innumerable funding increases based on demands that "this time it'll fix the schools". Nothing has moved the needle.

One of these is wrong:

1. the way the school system is set up and run

2. our expectations of what the schools can accomplish

Money is just not the problem.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mcguire on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:00PM (#27609371)
"The thing is, the "fully-funding" issue has completely vanished from the agenda. It is never discussed anymore."

The state was failing to provide funding to all of the school systems in the state. The legislature came up with a plan to fix that and the state Supreme Court agreed with it. There isn't much else to say there.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:22PM (#27609758)
What is the plan on how to spend the money to improve results?

There is none.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by romwell on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:49PM (#27608462)
This is akin to expecting improvement of a building constructed on shaky foundation after increasing funding when the construction reached the 8th floor.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by UncleOxidant on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:05PM (#27608650)
And then when they got to the 9th & 10th floors there was a pandemic.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @07:27PM (#27611887)
I would certainly expect progress on the unstable foundation after a year and a billion dollars spent.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by sokoloff on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:19PM (#27612754)
In this analogy, the foundation is “the years of schooling the student has already experienced”.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:37PM (#27613681)
There's no evidence that things for the first year students have improved.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by sokoloff on Thursday June 24, 2021 @08:02AM (#27616342)
Does Washington do standardized testing on kindergartners or first graders? If not, I agree with your claim that there’s no evidence [in any direction] to test this specific hypothesis most precisely.

I agree with (what I believe is part of) your position that lack of money isn’t the sole (and not even primary) problem in our schools. More money alone won’t fix anything. Maybe it’ll bring back music or other specials that some kids like, but money alone won’t put our education on par with Switzerland, China, or Singapore.

It’s also probably true that whatever is actually needed will also need money, at a minimum in the transition period. It’s a necessary but not sufficient input.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by romwell on Thursday June 24, 2021 @07:27PM (#27625237)
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, plus citation needed.

Not to mention that you can only know whether the foundation improved after you build on top of it... which is something we can only observe in the future.

Note that I am not saying that you are incorrect in your assessment. All I am saying is that it's too early to know one way or another.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by jltsiren on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:17PM (#27609675)
Institutional changes take time. Even with all that additional funding, it's still the same teachers teaching the same kids in the same schools. If the level of funding remains stable and the society gives the schools and the teachers sufficient autonomy, you may expect results in 20-30 years.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by tut-urut-utut on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:04PM (#27609453)
Do you really expect that the effect of „fully funded“ schools is measurable after only a couple of years.

It takes decades for any society scale effect to become evident.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by WalterBright on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:41PM (#27613715)
> It takes decades for any society scale effect to become evident.

"Just give us the billions, and don't expect any results."

So ok, then what's the plan? If there is a plan (no evidence of one) then are the goals? any timeline? any place where something can be measured?

I know, this is all highly unreasonable of me to expect any sort of accountability for billions spent.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by JohnWhigham on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:33PM (#27608238)
I think the real reason is buried deeper: most Americans have instilled into them that governments are not to be trusted. It's why government salaries suck, it's why it's largely filled with people that couldn't find jobs in the private sector (sad but true). This sentiment bleeds over into education, with nonsense talk of "leftist indoctrination", teachers being stereotyped as money-hungry and lazy because of their unions, and so on.

This isn't that far-fetched; the country was basically founded by rich conspiracy theorist farmers that didn't want to pay taxes.