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Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by gamegoblin on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:16PM (#27606224)
The book "Why Nations Fail" and the followup by the same authors "The Narrow Corridor" paints a fairly convincing picture that the success or failure of many modern Latin American countries is directly correlated with the extent to which the Spanish colonialists were able to enslave/subjugate the indigenous population, and the types of societies and institutions that followed that initial seed. For example, in modern day Bolivia you can overlay a Spanish colonial map detailing how much forced labor must be performed in each region with a modern poverty map and there is still a high degree of correlation.

"The Narrow Corridor" has an entire chapter devoted to examining the differences between Costa Rica and its neighbor Guatemala.

Guatemala had a large indigenous population that was forced to work on Encomiendas -- essentially Spanish plantations worked by indigenous slaves. This resulted in large swaths of land to be controlled by a few elite. This imbalance eventually results in a highly extractive and exploitative political and economic system. The same 8 families that were major Spanish colonial landowners still essentially run the country (though apparently their power is finally waning). The Castillo family has been the most powerful for literally half a millennium.

Contrast this with Costa Rica which was far more sparsely populated. This resulted in small landholders working their own plots of land, and, in the short term, relative poverty compared to other Spanish conquered lands. But being overlooked by the Spanish, and having a wide spread of land ownership across the populace resulted in a homegrown movement of rural democracy.

Links for further reading:

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2021/04/03/the-influe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica#Spanish_colonizatio...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_El_Salvador#The_oli... (El Salvador, but a similar situation)

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by pier25 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:40PM (#27607454)
I haven't read those books, but a priori it sounds like cherry picking.

Mexico for example had a revolution which gave the land to the people and is a country that, over a century later, is still struggling with corruption, ignorance, superstition, etc.

I've been living in Mexico for 12 years and IMO it all comes down to poor education like the grandparent comment by belval suggested.

As an example, take the current Mexican government who was largely put in power by the lower classes. Instead of investing into education and social programs, is putting all its eggs into the oil basket.

Edit:

BTW I'm not arguing that more expenditure in education results in better education.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by azernik on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:41PM (#27610032)
Revolutions are not as effective as they claim at overturning the basic structure of society - not without some very serious application of coercion at a grassroots level.

For the Mexican case specifically, the revolution did not replace the landowning political elite, but installed a different subset of them. A succession of presidents from the landowning class slow-walked land reform (we're talking single-digit percentages of land redistributed per decade), mostly motivated by the fear of Zapatista rebels rather than commitment to equality.

Cárdenas was probably the first seriously pro-reform president (mid- and late-30s), but the old landowners remained wealthy and preserved a good chunk of their holdings. (For political reasons, he focused on foreign landholders.) This meant that the next landowner-friendly president a few years later created a land-leasing system that de facto returned control of large collective farms to the landowning class.

See also how the (non-revolutionary) emancipation of serfs in the Russian Empire didn't change much, since serfs had to take out loans to compensate their former masters. Social hierarchies and power balances remained, despite a change in form.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by visualradio on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:07PM (#27611121)
In the United States continuous revolution is referred to as 'property tax'.

The historical pattern is that advocates for the rich will try to undermine assessments to fall more heavily on buildings in poor neighborhoods and replace property tax revenues with sales tax, and that advocates for the poor will try to reform assessments to fall more heavily on land in rich neighborhoods and decrease sales tax.

'Land reform' in the sense of trying to equally divide low value rural land by area without appointing assessors to appraise taxable value of urban property is viewed as a bizarre and impractical European idea.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by azernik on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:27PM (#27611342)
Rural land reform is less of a pressing issue when agriculture ceases to be the main economic activity - even in Europe, it was mostly either 1) very very early, or 2) in economically backwards regions.
Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by pier25 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:29PM (#27610650)
Anything I can read to learn more about this?

BTW there are still plenty of ejidos all over Mexico which are not owned by the political elite.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by azernik on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:39PM (#27610789)
Emmm. Most of this is from my college courses, with Wikipedia for recalling names and dates. From a quick Googling, this seems like a good overview: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/147642277.pdf

If you're interested in a really deep dive into related Eastern European examples (not Russian) of the limits and successes of land reform, I'd suggest this textbook: https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=372

And yup! The reversion of Cárdenas's reforms was not complete; reformers in positions of power do make some difference, even if it's less than you'd guess based on short-term results. Though note that many ejidos owned by the intended local peasant's collectives are de facto controlled by a large landowner or business. (The political elite of the early-/mid-20th century was a subset of the landowning elite, not its entirety.)

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by gamegoblin on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:59PM (#27607725)
The book has sections about Mexico as well. The basic gist is that the fundamental institutions that result in the inequality have persisted, even if the government has been overturned several times. The overarching theme of the book is about what types of incentives result from various types of institutions, and how positive and negative feedback loops can form therein.

Ultimately, Mexico has suffered significantly from the government granting monopoly rights to particular businesses (friends of the government) and by not respecting property rights. Both of these trends have spanned governments and go all the way back to the Spanish colonialists.

There is little incentive in Mexico to innovate and invest, because if you are too successful, you will likely run afoul of some wealthy friend of a politician who will use his power to ruin you. From the point of view of the political elite, this makes sense, because they are all rich and in charge. But this behavior impoverishes society on average.

Concrete examples in the book include the banking industry, which was effectively monopolized by 2 banks with government support in the 19th century. Contrasted with hundreds of banks with fierce competition in the US in the same time period. This resulted in high interest rates in Mexico (and thus little incentive to invest) and low interest rates in the US (which was rapidly industrializing).

A more modern example is comparing Bill Gates vs. Carlos Slim, who were vying for the title of the world's richest person when the book was written. Bill Gates made his fortune by founding an incredibly successful company. When it was engaging in monopolistic behavior, it was successfully prosecuted by the government. Contrast this with Carlos Slim who made his fortune largely by being granted favorable monopolistic deals by the Mexican government.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by kerblang on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:05PM (#27608649)
> by not respecting property rights

Ref. the movie Viva Zapata! Which has Marlon Brando playing a Mexican revolutionary hero facing this kind of disillusioning outcome over & over. (Mostly bringing this up because I went to the trouble to watch it recently and needed a conversation to work it into)

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by pier25 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:08PM (#27607852)
I would like to read more about this. Which of the two books has this chapter on Mexico?
Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by gamegoblin on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:14PM (#27607971)
Here is a pdf of Why Nations Fail. Ctrl+f for "A tale of two constitutions" and read until you see the next chapter title "Theories that don't work".

https://www.bau.edu.jo/UserPortal/UserProfile/PostsAttach/33...

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:52PM (#27607640)
Systems of exploitation tend to be durable and adaptable over time, producing similar outcomes even if the overall shape appears to change drastically.

For example, the U.S. Constitution’s 13th Amendment freed the slaves, but included an exception on forced labor for those convicted of a crime. Surprise surprise, former Confederate states make up crimes (like loitering) that are only enforced on Black people, and the cheap, no-choice labor force is back at work, even if under a structure that only barely resembles prewar chattel slavery.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by pier25 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:06PM (#27607830)
> Systems of exploitation tend to be durable and adaptable over time, producing similar outcomes even if the overall shape appears to change drastically.

Yes, because the fundamental problem is changing the culture, not the "shape".

In Mexico (the example I know first hand) corruption is definitely a cultural problem. It happens at all levels because it is culturally acceptable to bend/ignore the rules for personal gain.

There's even a saying in Mexico which is "el que no transa no avanza". It translates to something like "the one who doesn't cheat, doesn't move forward in life".

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:14PM (#27607959)
A film you may find interesting if you haven’t seen it is the Brazilian crime thriller “Tropa de Elite 2 – O Inimigo Agora é Outro”, which not wishing to spoil anything, was a fascinating exploration of how systems of corruption can remain even as everyone involved gets moved out; the vacuum is filled as quickly as it’s made.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad:_The_Enemy_Withi...

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by yesenadam on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:59PM (#27612608)
That is the sequel to Tropa de Elite (2007), by the same director, Jose Padilha. I strongly recommend watching Tropa de Elite first.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0861739/

The same director's documentary Bus 174 (2002) is even much more intense and unforgettable.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0340468/

He also created the amazing series The Mechanism (2018-), based on the Operation Car Wash investigations, during the last 10 years, into corruption in Brazil.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6873658/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by pier25 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:16PM (#27608007)
Thanks for the recomendation!
Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by RhodoGSA on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:44AM (#27632212)
Mexico is the 9th largest economy by GDP and dwarfs all other countries in the regions. I think you proved is point, rather than negated it. Also, as a counter point, Mexico's proximity to the US had alot to do with the corruption and current regime in mexico.

Drugs across the american border is very lucrative giving power and money to alot of bad people in Mexico. Watch Narcos Mexico to get a wiff of the proximity to the US creating cartels.

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by distribot on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:15PM (#27610475)
Nothing substantial to add, but I'm reading this book now and I'm finding it pretty interesting. The idea that the way colonial societies were organized and their institutional legacies affect modern nations makes a lot of sense. Cortes vs John Smith. Encomiendas vs settler colonies. And while early American society was extremely unequal, there was a lot more participation in the political process by more people than in most Spanish colonies.
Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by frozenport on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:46PM (#27606607)
`you can overlay a Spanish colonial map detailing how much forced labor must be performed in each region with a modern poverty map and there is still a high degree of correlation.`

Could this be partially attributed the geography, natural resources available in the region. AKA both the Spanish Empire and contemporary society saw the same poverty inducing industries available in those regions?

Re:Costa Rica Has Run on 100% Renewable Electricity for 299 ... by gamegoblin on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:14PM (#27607054)
I decided to look up the actual blurb I was referencing to see what I had misremembered. Here is the text from the book (some snippets shortened with [..]). Paragraph 5 directly answers your question by comparing two provinces that are geographically and culturally similar, but happened to fall on different sides of a colonial forced labor zone.

"""

At this point the Spanish focused on the people of the Inca Empire. [..] Citizens were divided into encomiendas, with one going to each of the conquistadors [..]. The encomienda was the main institution used for the control and organization of labor in the early colonial period, but it soon faced a vigorous contender.

In 1545 a local named Diego Gualpa was searching for an indigenous shrine high in the Andes in what is today Bolivia. He was thrown to the ground by a sudden gust of wind and in front of him appeared a cache of silver ore. This was part of a vast mountain of silver, which the Spanish baptized El Cerro Rico, “The Rich Hill.” Around it grew the city of Potosí, which at its height in 1650 had a population of 160,000 people, larger than Lisbon or Venice in this period.

To exploit the silver, the Spanish needed miners [..]. They sent a new viceroy [..] Francisco de Toledo, whose main mission was to solve the labor problem. [..] To find the labor he needed, de Toledo first moved almost the entire indigenous population, concentrating them in new towns called reducciones — literally “reductions” — which would facilitate the exploitation of labor by the Spanish Crown. Then he revived and adapted an Inca labor institution known as the mita, which, in the Incas’ language, Quechua, means “a turn.”

Under their mita system, the Incas had used forced labor to run plantations designed to provide food for temples, the aristocracy, and the army. [..] In de Toledo’s hands the mita, especially the Potosí mita, was to become the largest and most onerous scheme of labor exploitation in the Spanish colonial period. De Toledo defined a huge catchment area, running from the middle of modern-day Peru and encompassing most of modern Bolivia. [..] The Potosí mita endured throughout the entire colonial period and was abolished only in 1825. Map 1 shows the catchment area of the mita superimposed on the extent of the Inca empire at the time of the Spanish conquest. It illustrates the extent to which the mita overlapped with the heartland of the empire, encompassing the capital Cusco.

Remarkably, you still see the legacy of the mita in Peru today. Take the differences between the provinces of Calca and nearby Acomayo. There appears to be few differences among these provinces. Both are high in the mountains, and each is inhabited by the Quechua-speaking descendants of the Incas. Yet Acomayo is much poorer, with its inhabitants consuming about one-third less than those in Calca. [..] In Calca and Acomayo, people grow the same crops, but in Calca they sell them on the market for money. In Acomayo they grow food for their own subsistence. These inequalities, apparent to the eye and to the people who live there, can be understood in terms of the institutional differences between these departments — institutional differences with historical roots going back to de Toledo and his plan for effective exploitation of indigenous labor. The major historical difference between Acomayo and Calca is that Acomayo was in the catchment area of the Potosí mita. Calca was not.

[..] Throughout the Spanish colonial world in the Americas, similar institutions and social structures emerged. After an initial phase of looting, and gold and silver lust, the Spanish created a web of institutions designed to exploit the indigenous peoples. [..] Though these institutions generated a lot of wealth for the Spanish Crown and made the conquistadors and their descendants very rich, they also turned Latin America into the most unequal continent in the world and sapped much of its economic potential.