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Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by lalaland1125 on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:06PM (#27581852)
What would be an example of a smart contract that provides value compared to simpler/cheaper centralized solutions?
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by everfree on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:31PM (#27582211)
The Compound Finance smart contract, and similar contracts, let you deposit digital assets, including digital dollars, and earn borrowing fees from others who want to take on leverage. Unlike in traditional finance, the barrier to entry is relatively low, so there's lots of competition and the fees end up being very low meaning users keep most of the profits. Compare this to traditional stock brokers - unless you're in the 1% with a very fancy brokerage account, usually the broker retains 100% of the profits of lending your shares out, with a really good deal being when they share 50% with you.

As soon as stocks get meaningfully tokenized on the blockchain, I believe p2p lending of stocks will explode just as p2p lending of cryptocurrency has. It just makes sense for people to keep all the money their shares are earning from stock lending rather than give half or more of it to a brokerage.

It would also let stocks settle instantly and non custodially, so there's no "Robinhood had to halt stock purchases because they ran out of money" moment.

That's not to get into the fact that a lot of this is traditionally inaccessible from a lot of countries, and smart contracts are global by default.

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by dcolkitt on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:25PM (#27582117)
When I bought my house, I paid the title escrow company thousands of dollars to perform a very simple service. Hold the deposit money in escrow, and release it specific parties based on certain conditions.

There's no reason in the future why that service couldn't be performed by an off-the-shelf smart contract for essentially nothing. Home buyer sends deposit money to the contract. If buyer exercises a contingency before date M, release money back. If user doesn't, transfer funds to home seller. In case of dispute, defer decision to a pre-agreed upon adjudication agent and pay said agent to render a decision.

There are so many stories like this in the plumbing of the financial system. It's ironic, because high finance is built upon layers and layers of complex abstraction. The way someone a sophisticated hedge fund decides how to allocates assets, hedge exposures, levers positions, manage risk, and execute trades is like something straight out of science fiction.

But the way the money actually moves from point A to point B is stuck in the 19th century. It's hard to overstate how much of the value collected by the financial industry is actually just handling the nuts and bolts of physically moving money around in a trusted way. For every quant building a derivatives pricing model based on stochastic calculus, there's a dozen low-level clerks sending each other wire instructions by fax and filling out boilerplate KYC notifications.

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by shkkmo on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:34PM (#27582263)
The hard part of escrow is where it meets the real world. The ability to determine when an event has taken place in the real world, without being tricked, is hard for automated blockchain agents. ("Smart contract" is a misnomer because they are pretty dumb and generally are not legally binding contracts.)
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by gnopgnip on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:04PM (#27583670)
>There's no reason in the future why that service couldn't be performed by an off-the-shelf smart contract for essentially nothing.

The existence of the legal system, quiet title suits, how property is recorded is why this will never happen

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by Raidion on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:33PM (#27582233)
I'm not a huge crypo fanboy, but I think there are a ton of "killer apps" that are kinda being sorted out. Basically think of something that has a middleman in a financial transaction and remove it.

Distributed Betting Markets (Transaction locked up depending on outcome of a sports game) Distributed Derivatives (financial instruments locked up based on price/date) Distributed Insurance (If I'm a farmer, I could put money up based on rainfall, price of wheat, or other metrics).

These aren't simpler, but they can be cheaper. Think insurance at a true market rate based on your specific details. No paying for advertising, or other cohorts with different risk profiles bundled.

Not saying that there aren't problems to be solved, or that it's worth it's current value, but there are some pretty cool stuff that you can do with it if they tech gets good enough. It's like an electric car, pretty terrible in a lot of situations previously, but if someone is able to come up with a good enough battery, the game changes.

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by mullingitover on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:40PM (#27582353)
> Distributed Betting Markets (Transaction locked up depending on outcome of a sports game) Distributed Derivatives (financial instruments locked up based on price/date) Distributed Insurance (If I'm a farmer, I could put money up based on rainfall, price of wheat, or other metrics).

Don't the executions of these contracts still depend on a (centralized) outside source of information which pretty much wrecks the decentralized aspect of the network?

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by thebean11 on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:53PM (#27582604)
No, the outcome is decided by the consensus of betting market participants, with mechanisms to "punish" liars/bad oracles.

https://augur.net/faqs

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by mullingitover on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:07PM (#27582850)
Reading through this, I don't see any guarantee that your contract would be safe from bad oracles if the stakes are high enough and the attacker has adequate resources. If your attack is successful, you not only get steal the amount at stake in the contract, you steal what the good oracles have staked, and all with zero recourse.
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by thebean11 on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:38PM (#27583334)
Yes, there is not a guarantee, but the goal of these consensus mechanisms is to make the cost of attack greater than the reward.

In order for a successful attack, I believe you'd need to control a very large portion of all available REP. If your attack is successful, the value of your REP would likely go down (as the market is no longer trusted) so there's likely no economic incentive to do such an attack.

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by tfehring on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:00PM (#27582740)
Can't speak to the others but insurance couldn't really work that way and compete on price with traditional insurers. The only way for the "policyholder" to be confident that an untrusted "insurer" will have the money to pay their claim is if the smart contract forces the "insurer" to fully collateralize it - e.g., to fund a trust or escrow account with the maximum amount of money that it could possibly be required to pay out in claims. For insurance to be attractive as a seller, you need to pool enough risks that you can generally hold a reserve that's much lower than the maximum possible loss amount because otherwise you need too much capital to fund it. You can get around this to some extent with reinsurance, but that's not eliminating risk pooling, it's just shifting it to a different balance sheet.
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by bob33212 on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:42PM (#27582411)
In theory crypto could cure cancer by funding a promising researcher via micro payments. But until that actually happens, crypto's use case is ransomware, buying drugs online, and being used as a way to "invest" in coins that have no cashflow.
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by thebean11 on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:54PM (#27582643)
Distributed prediction markets (in the post you replied to) already exist, it's not theoretical
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by bob33212 on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:06PM (#27582842)
I see, what have you used it for?
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by thebean11 on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:40PM (#27583366)
The betting market, or crypto in general? I haven't used the betting market (augur) but certainly plan to. I enjoy PredictIt but the fees are crazy high.
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by meetups323 on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:08PM (#27584514)
One idea I've been playing with in my head for a bit is a blockchain/smart contract based approach to digital gaming/gambling.

I've devised a protocol for a blockchain-based RNG that can be used to tick the game state along, and a smart contract would transfer the pot to the winner. It would be quite liberating to play strategic games with random elements online without any trust in the platform required, even more so if you can get paid to do it!

Placing any significant amount of real money into a system when the platform can fudge the numbers around to make sure the house always wins is a non-starter IMO.

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by clipradiowallet on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:41PM (#27582386)
Data storage/transfer comes to mind.. consider the following:

1. you request a stored piece of data from me

2. i send an encrypted blob to you

3. you publish smart contract that accepts 1 argument(encryption key) against a sample of encrypted blob. successful execution transfers the balance to me

That's just a random example, but the smart contract portion ensures it's impossible for me to receive payment without you also receiving your data - and vice versa.

edit: formatting list

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by npsf3000 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @12:10PM (#27593492)
Can you explain in detail further?

How would the smart contract confirm the decryption works... without having access to the key and data (and therefor making it all public?)

How does this protect against meaningless data being sent - all you've confirmed is that something can be decrypted... but says nothing about what is being decrypted.

What use case do you have for this. What situation is there where you need data from someone, but so little trust exists you can't pay them before or after the data is sent?

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by clipradiowallet on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:22PM (#27595231)
Sure, I've tried to answer all your points below.

>How would the smart contract confirm the decryption works... without having access to the key and data (and therefor making it all public?)

The encryption is symmetric, and a sample of the encrypted blob is included with the smart contract, eg the first 2048 bytes. The 2048 bytes and hash of the decrypted original are included in the smart contract. The encryption key is the parameter supplied to the contract. This ensures that the key used to solve the contract is valid to decrypt the encrypted payload sent to the client. IE...if the contract can be solved, then the payer can use the same key sent to the smart contract to decrypt the blob you sent him.

> How does this protect against meaningless data being sent - all you've confirmed is that something can be decrypted... but says nothing about what is being decrypted.

See above. If the person who stored the data retained a checksum of the first 2048 bytes, they can compare the decrypted 2048 byte hash to the hash they have stored. Now they can be assured that key will decrypt the entire blob you sent them. You could mix it up, and use an arbitrary offset of a 2048 byte block size if paranoid.

> What use case do you have for this. What situation is there where you need data from someone, but so little trust exists you can't pay them before or after the data is sent?

To incentivize one or more peers to store encrypted data, with the expectation they would be paid for supplying it later. The peers would have no knowledge of the payload. A use-case could be that I have _very_ sensitive data, and I want to make sure it is available in the future, but do not trust anyone to store it in plaintext. I could encrypt the data, and ask peer(s) to store it for me. When I request the data back in the future, any peer that has a copy would be incentivized to under-bid other peers(if there are any) to set a price we agree upon to transmit the data back to me. The end result is my data is resilient, and the people storing it are doing it with some expectation of payment at a point in the future.

disclaimer: this is a contrived example....but do you remember the wikileaks "insurance file" in the past? If that insurance file was stored in the manner above, it would be even more likely to exist far in the future when the people storing it have the possibility of being paid for storing it. It also gives them plausible deniability of _what_ exactly they were storing if it is encrypted.

Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by cma on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:17PM (#27581988)
There is probably a more advanced version of ransomware they can enable. The other big use case envisioned when they were conceived was automated payouts on distributed assassination markets, where several news articles about an assassination could trigger a payout.
Re:Doge Branded as Ponzi by Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapo... by lalaland1125 on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:24PM (#27582096)
Yep. Smart contracts and cryptocurrencies really helped accelerate the ransomware market.